From: Manabu Terao mx3 ttcn ne jp> Date: 27 mar 2007 Subject: RE: Watanabe's comments (2) Watanabe did not mention to concrete rating after the game. On the other hand, they say Katsumata 5dan rated it 3 dan shoreikai during the game. Furthermore, 3 crown Habu rated it 2 dan shoreikai in his article in Nikkei Newspaper evening edition on March 26. Manabu Terao Mark Schreiber hotmail com> wrote: > > Watanabe was surprised by some of the computer moves. Sometimes he > underestimated Bonanza. Sometimes he overestimated Bonanza. There should > be more computer vs pro games so we can get a better understanding how > well the computer plays. > > Before the game Watanabe rated Bonanza about 2-3 kyu Shoreikai at 2 > hour games. Did Watanabe rate Bonanza after this game? > Mark > > Larry Kaufman wrote: > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: c2i net> > > To: topica com> > > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:23 AM > > Subject: Re: Watanabe's comments (2) > > > > > > > > Thanks very much for that, absolutely fascinating, and very open-minded. > > > > Both the remark about computers finding strange moves that expand the > > boundaries of the game, and the comment that their endgames are not yet > > perfect are very interesting. > > > > Looking back on how computer programs overtook the chess world it sounds > > > > like they are closing the shogi gap remarkably quickly. It will be > > interesting to see if there is a longer period where things are more > > even > > due to the differences in the games. > > > > jt > > > > I have a feeling that due to the differences in the games, the period > > will be shorter, not longer. My point is that the draw margin in chess > > made > > it possible for top players and computers to be competitive for quite a > > few > > years. Once Shogi programs start to beat top pros in serious play (which > > > > looks likely to happen in a year or two judging by this game), I think > > it > > will be only a couple more years before they can win pretty > > consistently. We > > may not be so far away from seeing shogi programs giving lance handicap > > to > > the Meijin or Ryu-Oh titleholders, just as we are now seeing chess > > programs > > giving pawn odds to grandmasters. > > > > Larry Kaufman > > > > ----- Original Message --------------- > > > > Subject: Re: Watanabe's comments (2) > > From: Richard Sams parkcity ne jp> > > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:00:15 +0900 > > To: shogi topica com > > > > > > > >Akira Watanabe is very impressive. After winning his game against > > >Bonanza under great pressure, I imagine he had to attend the inevitable > > >sponsor's party and answer a lot of questions from people not > > >necessarily familiar with shogi. According to his blog, he got home at > > >midnight. He must have been exhausted, but instead of going to bed he > > >started writing his report on the game for his readers. At around 2.15 > > >a.m. I noticed that he had already posted the first part (Preparations > > >for the Game). Since it was quite short, I decided to translate it, > > >assuming he would write his report on the game after a good night's > > >sleep. But when I finished my translation at around 3.00 a.m. I noticed > > >that he had already posted his game report! I've just finished > > >translating that (see below). Now I notice that he's at it again, > > >answering questions from fans about the game. I'm afraid I can't keep > > >up with this pace . > > > > > >Here's the URL for Watanabe's site: > > > > > >http://blog.goo.ne.jp/kishi-akira/ > > > > > > Moves of the game: > > >Black: Bonanza > > >White: Akira Watanabe, Ryuo Titleholder > > >P-7f P-8d; P-6f P-3d; R-6h S-6b; K-4h P-5d; K-3h K-4b; K-2h K-3b; S-7b > > >G6a-5b; L-1h S-5c; K-1i B-3c; S-6c K-2b; S-2h G-3b; S-5f S-4d; P-4f > > >P-8e; B-7g G5b-4b; G-3i L-1b (Diagram); P-4e S-5c; S-4g K-1a; S-3f > > >P-2d; P-2f S-2b; G6i-5h S-2c; G5h-4h P-1d; S3f-2g G-2b; G4h-3h G4b-3b; > > >P-6e (Diagram) . Bx7g+; Nx7g G-4b; B*6f G4b-3b; B-7e B*4b; P-5f P-7d; > > >B-5g B-3c; B-4f R-8c; R-6g P-8f; Px8f Rx8f; Bx9a+ R-8i+; P-4d Sx4d; > > >R-4g +Rx9i (Diagram); P-6d S-3e; P-3f L*4f; R-3g Sx2f; Sx2f L-4i+; > > >Px6c+ +Lx3i; Gx3i P-2e; Sx2e P*2g; Rx2g P*2f; Rx2f G*1e (Diagram); P*2d > > >Gx2f; Px2c+ G3bx2c; P*2d P*2g; Px2c+ +Rx3i; +Px2b Bx2b; Sx3i G*2h; Sx2h > > >Px2h+; +Bx2h P*2g; +Bx2g Gx2g; S*3i S*3h; G*2h Gx2h; Sx2h P*2g Black > > >Resigns > > > > > > > > > From Akira Watanabe's Blog > > > > > >March 22, 2007 > > > > > >Daiwa Securities Special Match Against Bonanza Part 2 - The Game > > > > > >I got up at 8.00a.m. and left for the venue with an NHK employee who > > >had come to take photos of the event. We had the following conversation > > >in the car: > > > > > >NHK photographer: "Bonanza has already been set up at the venue and > > >lost a game to Matsuo." > > > > > >Me: "You're kidding! You mean that Matsuo?" > > > > > >"Yes." > > > > > >"Matsuo 6-dan lost to Bonanza?" > > > > > >"Oh no, sorry, it wasn't Matsuo - it was Matsumoto-san (amateur 4 or 5 > > >dan) who's in charge of the Internet live transmission." > > > > > >"Ah, well that's not so surprising." (Here I am feeling really nervous > > >before the big game and he's trying to give me a heart attack!) > > > > > > Matsumoto-san, who calls Bonanza "my friend," phoned me on the day > > >before the game: "Hello. Just to let you know that Bonanza is already > > >at the venue and can apparently analyze many more moves ahead than > > >before. (Sounding really pleased) Bonanza's rating is now 2800! Good > > >luck!" > > > > > >Who is this guy supporting? > > > > > >By the way, shogi ratings are provided on the Shogi Club 24 Internet > > >shogi dojo. The highest rating at the moment is 3084, so that means > > >Bonanza is only 300 points below the top. This is no joke - I'm > > >beginning to get scared. > > > > > >We arrive at the venue. Judging from what people there say, it really > > >seems true that today Bonanza is functioning very well and fast too. I > > >was quite shocked. Returning to the back room, I try to relax but my > > >heart is beating faster and I'm already in slight panic mode. If I > > >think about the coming game I'll only have negative thoughts so I spend > > >the remaining time watching TV. > > > > > >The game begins. As expected, Bonanza plays 4th file rook anaguma. > > > > > > GAME DIAGRAM (after 30 . L-1b) > > > > > >Up to now everything has gone as expected. I looked at various ways of > > >playing this position and came to the conclusion that this was the > > >safest. Here Bonanza usually plays P-6e S-5c; Bx3c+ G3bx3c; B*7a. > > > > > >REFERENCE DIAGRAM > > > > > >After . R-7b, Black has to exchange the bishop for the silver on 5c and > > >White already has a winning position. This is what I had been expecting > > >but today Bonanza didn't play this way. Afterwards I asked the > > >programmer, who said that Bonanza had looked at B*7a but stopped > > >thinking at that point! > > > > > >Because it didn't play B*7a I felt "there's something different about > > >Bonanza today." > > > > > >GAME DIAGRAM (after 47. P-6e) > > > > > >P-6e seemed to be a surprise for many people, but having played Bonanza > > >many times, I was expecting it. This kind of move is generally > > >considered bad, but in practice it's not so easy to punish. > > > > > >51. B*6f was a move I'd never seen before in such a position, but it > > >was actually quite good. It's the kind of move that shogi pros don't > > >consider, and you could even say that computers have contributed to > > >improving the technical level of shogi in this way. I think computers > > >will continue to show us new kinds of move like this and that this > > >could lead to the discovery of new ideas and tesuji. > > > > > >GAME DAIGRAM (after 70 . *Rx9i) > > > > > >This is a key moment. Here Bonanza played 71. P-6d. When I saw this > > >move, I said out loud "What's this (what's this weak move)?" P-6d cuts > > >off Black's promoted bishop on 9a and even if he makes a tokin with > > >Px6c+, it's a long way from my anaguma castle. Thinking "Thanks very > > >much!", I sank into deep thought. > > > > > >Several minutes later I was thinking "Maybe P-6d is a good move after > > >all." If I play . Px6d, he takes my knight with *Bx8a and, compared to > > >taking the knight immediately in the diagram position, his attack is > > >one move faster because he can bring the promoted bishop back with > > >*Bx5d. So I can't take the pawn on 6d. If I can't take the pawn, I must > > >attack right away but I can't see any effective way of attacking. After > > >the move I played, . S-3e, I was expecting Px6c+, when I intended . > > >P-2e with a clear advantage. I had invited this knowing very well that > > >the computer program awards high points for making a tokin, but Bonanza > > >immediately played the best move, P-3f. > > > > > >Bonanza had chosen P-6d based on the thinking "After P-6d the opponent > > >must attack. If so, the attack can be successfully repulsed." Human > > >players wouldn't consider P-6d because of their intuitive fear of > > >blocking the promoted bishop's diagonal. > > > > > >Seeing these moves, I realized that I my opponent was much stronger > > >than the Bonanza I had encountered up to then. > > > > > >GAME DIAGRAM (after 88 . G*1e) > > > > > >This was the point where the outcome was decided. Just when I had > > >worked out that I would win after 89. P*2d, Bonanza actually played it. > > > > > >If my opponent were human, I'd think "he's probably missed *Rx3i" but > > >since I trust Bonanza's endgame ability I was now thinking "*Rx3i ought > > >to win, but maybe there's an amazing reply ." > > > > > >In the same position you think differently depending on whether the > > >opponent is human or a computer. > > > > > >In fact, it seems that Bonanza underestimated . *Rx3i. Computers miss > > >things too. I thought the computer's endgame was perfect, so I felt a > > >little relieved! > > > > > >After . G*5a, instead of P*2d, I had been afraid of the line L*2g Gx2f; > > >Lx2f P*2g; G*3h Px2h*; *Bx2h (Reference Diagram). > > > > > >REFERENCE DIAGRAM (up to 95. *Bx2h) > > > > > >To play this, the opponent has to think "I'm giving up a rook and my > > >silver will be taken by a pawn, but I'll be able to bring my promoted > > >bishop into the defense and my opponent has run out of pawns." I > > >figured that Bonanza wouldn't be capable of finding such a high-level > > >sequence. > > > > > >So P*2d was the losing move. Not surprisingly, the intuitive "sense of > > >distance" from the king seems to have been hard for Bonanza. > > > > > >Still, I'm glad I won. I'm really relieved too. > > > > > >I had heard that computer programs will get stronger using > > >high-performance hardware, but I didn't expect it to be as strong as > > >this. With further advances in the hardware and improvements by the > > >developers, they are going to get even stronger. I thought they still > > >had quite a way to go, but now we have to recognize that they've > > >reached the point where they are getting to be a match for > > >professionals. I think we can no longer avoid matches between computers > > >and shogi professionals. And next time it will attract even greater > > >attention. > > > > > >For the past month, I've been feeling quite a lot pressure as the big > > >day approached. Now at last I'm free from that pressure, so I'm going > > >to sleep very well .. zzzzz > --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.aB5TiY.c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------