From: Larry Kaufman comcast net> Date: 21 mar 2007 Subject: Re: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Mark Schreiber" hotmail com> To: topica com> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:20 PM Subject: RE: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion Thank you for your comments. Where can I find more information about the pro divisions? Shogi news in English is sparse. If you go to Reijer Grimbergen's shogi page, and click on "meijin=20 tournament", you will see players and results listed in five blocks, A, B1,= =20 B2, C1, and C2. The players in A (plus the title holders, who are often the= =20 same players) are considered the strongest players, then the B1 players,= =20 etc. on down to C2. The winner of the A group challenges the Meijin=20 titleholder each year for that title. Larry Kaufman Larry Kaufman wrote: > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Mark Schreiber" hotmail com> > To: topica com> > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:14 AM > Subject: RE: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion > > > > Hi Larry Kaufman, > If it's a desire to profit then has the nsr setup a professional fee > structure to play computers? The prohibition was made after a pro almost > lost. Kazuyoshi Nishimura said if 1 pro loses, it could create the > perception that pro players are weaker than the software. It's clear the > prohibition is because they are afraid of losing. > > If NSR didn't want pros playing computers, this match wouldn't be > happening now. I think they just didn't want pros playing computers > without > NSR getting a cut of any fees. > > It is unfortunate we don't have a shogi programmer here to give > their opinion about the usefulness of computer vs titleholder without a > handicap. > > Can you give details about the handicap matches between computers and > the top pros with mixed results? > > I don't have the details, but I was told that a big factor was > hardware - the program tended to win with fast hardware and to lose with > > slower hardware. Apparently, it is now running on much faster hardware > than > before (probably a quad or octal), that probably accounts for the > estimated > 2800 rating vs. 2640 actual rating on sc24. From my experience with > chess > programs, I can assure you that such estimated rating changes based on > faster hardware are quite reliable. > So there is little doubt that Bonanza on the super-fast hardware can= > compete with at least mid-level pros in fast play (30" per move, the > usual > time limit on sc24). However the slower the time limit, the better for > the > human player. I didn't hear what the time limit is for this match, but > I'm > sure it's much slower than 30" per move, so probably the title-holder > remains a huge favorite. > > Have titleholder pros lost to 4 dan pros with a bishop handicap? > > There was a series of ten games around 1990 in which the top ten pro= s > played ten new 4 Dan pros at bishop handicap. All the 4 Dan pros won > except > the one who played Oyama. There have been a couple other instances of > pros > losing when receiving bishop handicap -- Senzaki lost twice taking > bishop > handicap from Kimura a couple years ago, but these were 10" per move > games, > and Hanamura 9 Dan was known to defeat other pros giving them bishop at > times. Also the late Koike, the top Amateur who qualified by strength to > be > a pro but was turned down for ethical reasons, lost a game taking bishop > > handicap from the great Masuda 9 Dan. > > I am a confused. What are levels between amateur 6 dan and pro 4 dan? > > They are separate scales. Roughly speaking, I consider amateur 6 dan= > and pro 1 Dan to be about equal on average, but amateur 6 Dan is a much > wider rank. Some players of that rank are not terribly strong, maybe > only > around pro 3 kyu or so, while others are definitely strong enough to > fight > on even terms with a typical pro 4 Dan. The amateur ranks are not well > defined. By the way, the pro ranks are only meaningful up to 4 Dan. > Beyond > that, promotion is pretty much just a matter of age, as it's based on > how > many games you win. The division in which a pro plays has far more > meaning > than his rank. > > Mark > > Larry > > Larry Kaufman wrote: > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: "Mark Schreiber" hotmail com> > > To: topica com> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 4:30 AM > > Subject: RE: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion > > > > > > > > To Bernhard, Adam and Everyone, > > > > The conspiracy theory is not far fetched. Remember the NSR is > > paranoid, they forbid pros from playing computers. > > > > This is not paranoia, it is simply a desire to profit from the > > situation. > > > > Computers are allowed in the Ryu-O tournament. I remember the > > computer program Gekisashi won 1 game in the 2005 Ryu-O tournament. Is = a > > computer playing in this year's Ryu-O tournament? It is interesting to > > see if it does better this year. > > > > The bonanza hardware will not matter when it plays Watanabe? Even i= f > > it uses a supercomputer it will lose. Today's programs are just too > > weak. They play at about amateur 6 dan. > > > > I don't think the programmer can learn anything from playing a pro > > that is so much stronger. It's the same if you or I were to play > > Watanabe. > > > > Let's not exaggerate. The difference in strength is enough to=20 > > predict > > the winner, but not so great that nothing can be learned. > > > > If a computer plays someone of equal strength then some > > strategies will fail and some strategies will succeed. The programmer > > can see if his changes cause a failure or it causes a success. But if > > the computer or anyone plays a pro that is 12 levels stronger, then > > every move leads to failure. The programmer will never see his changes > > make a difference. Even if the computer makes better moves that a weak > > pro would make they will also fail. The programmer will never learn > > anything from playing a player so much stronger because all moves lead > > to failure. > > > > I don't think Bonanza playing a 9 dan pro with a handicap makes any= > > sense. The handicap would have to be tremendous. > > > > Actually the handicap in recent matches between computers and the= =20 > > top > > pros has been bishop, with mixed results. I wouldn't call that > > "tremendous"; > > pros have been known to beat other pros at bishop handicap. Basically I= > > think you are overstating the difference between a top pro and a top > > amateur. > > > > Better for Bonanza to > > play a player with a similar strength, a 6 dan amateur without a > > handicap. > > > > Maybe better, but both are interesting. > > > > Mark > > > > Larry Kaufman > > > > Bernhard M=E4rz wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > Bonanza will be slaughter. Can we learn anything from this? I like= =20 > > > > to > > > > see more computer vs man matches. But make them balanced. Shouldn't= > > > > Bonanza be playing a 6 or maybe 7 dan? > > > > > > I believe, WE (!!!) can not learn much. > > > > > > But I assume, the programmers of Shogi programs can learn from such > > > games to improve there programs. > > > > > > Also (as you said) it could be interesting so see more computer vs ma= n > > > matches. > > > Nevertheless it's not so important for me, to watch such a game. I= =20 > > > like > > > to know the strength of computers (for this reason results against 6= =20 > > > dan > > > > > > humans would be interesting) and like to play against it for myself. > > > > > > On the other side I would be more interested in handicap games, means= > > > make the games balanced and give Bonanza a 50% chance against 9 dan > > > pros. > > > > > > Bernhard > > > > Adam wrote: > > > > > > Hallo Mark, Larry and all, > > > > > > do You really think that such conspiration theories are true, Mark? := ) > > > Psychological value of Bonanzas slaughter by Watanabe RyuOh for pros > > > is undeniable. But isn't it a bit childish? Maybe NSR wish to > > > publicaly demonstrate difference in strength and thus help in > > > development of better shogi playing programs. Advancements in CS is > > > unstoppable, and unlike human minds computers simply have "no" limits= . > > > So time when computer beat up pro will come. THis raise (imho!) an > > > interesting question: RuyOh tournament is open even to amateur > > > players. What about computers? Are they allowed too? How will NSR > > > react to possibility of computer become 42th ryuoh... > > > > > > As for upcomming match. Do you know any configuration details? Will i= t > > > be some special hardware/bonanza version playing with Watanabe RyuOh?= > > > Or just regular "Thoshiba notebook" and "bonanza from web". > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Adam Skalny > > > > > > Quoting Mark Schreiber hotmail com>: > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > Thanks for the ratings clarification. I have a theory on why= =20 > > > > this > > > > match was arranged. > > > > > > > > I can't imagine the Bonanza programmer will want his program to= =20 > > > > be > > > > clobbered. The Japan shogi association arranged this match. With al= l > > > > the > > > > talk about how strong the computer will be some pros might be=20 > > > > getting > > > > scared. This match will give the weaker pros pointers on how to bea= t > > > > the > > > > computer. The match is also to give the pros a boost of confidence.= =20 > > > > If > > > > they are more confident then the Pros will play better against the > > > > computer. It is also to show that shogi is so much harder than=20 > > > > western > > > > chess that it is in a different class then western chess. > > > > > > > > I think it will take about 20 years, 2027, when a computer can > > > > beat > > > > the best shogi pro. So the pros have time before they need to worry= . > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > Larry Kaufman wrote: > > > >> > > > >> It seems strange to me too. Bonanza is roughly on a par with= =20 > > > >> top > > > >> level > > > >> amateur players, but such players would probably only have a 5% > > > >> chance > > > >> at > > > >> best against a pro titleholder. So unless Bonanza has been improve= d > > > >> greatly, > > > >> it's just a publicity stunt. > > > >> Incidentally, Bonanza is considered to be on a par with=20 > > > >> Amateur > > > >> 6 > > > >> Dan > > > >> players, not Pro 6 Dan players, so it's even more unreasonable tha= n > > > >> your > > > >> > > > >> question implies. > > > >> By the way, the final score of the Rybka-Ehlvest pawn handica= p > > > >> chess > > > >> match was 5.5-2.5 for Rybka (giving a pawn). > > > >> > > > >> Larry Kaufman > > > >> > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> From: "Mark Schreiber" hotmail com> > > > >> To: topica com> > > > >> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:56 PM > > > >> Subject: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > Talking about handicap systems to level the playing field. If= > > > >> > Bonanza is maybe a 6 dan why is it playing a 9 dan? 9 dan Ryu-O > > > >> > Champion > > > >> > Watanabe said, "I don't think I'll lose". Then he said, "A loss= =20 > > > >> > can > > > >> > never be permitted". Does anyone have any doubt what will be the= > > > >> > result? > > > >> > Bonanza will be slaughter. Can we learn anything from this? I= =20 > > > >> > like > > > >> > to > > > >> > see more computer vs man matches. But make them balanced.=20 > > > >> > Shouldn't > > > >> > Bonanza be playing a 6 or maybe 7 dan? > > > >> > Mark > > > >> > > > > >> > Larry Kaufman wrote: > > > >> >> By a curious twist of fate, just as computer shogi program= s > > > >> >> are > > > >> >> reaching > > > >> >> the level where they can compete with pros without a=20 > > > >> >> handicap > > > >> >> (as > > > >> >> planned for Bonanza shortly), in chess the opposite has= =20 > > > >> >> just > > > >> >> occurred. A > > > >> >> match is now taking place in which computer chess program > > > >> >> "Rybka" is > > > >> >> giving a pawn handicap to a renowned grandmaster (Jaan > > > >> >> Ehlvest) > > > >> >> in > > > >> >> an > > > >> >> eight game match, and the computer is leading 3-0! > > > >> >> You can either take this as evidence of the superiority of= > > > >> >> shogi > > > >> >> over > > > >> >> chess, or as a forecast of things to come in shogi. I thin= k > > > >> >> it's not > > > >> >> so > > > >> >> many years away that a shogi program will spot the Meijin = a > > > >> >> lance > > > >> >> and > > > >> >> defeat him. Few could have imagined this would happen in > > > >> >> chess, > > > >> >> but > > > >> >> it > > > >> >> has, and shogi will be next. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Larry Kaufman, chess International Master and Shogi amateu= r=20 > > > >> >> 5 > > > >> >> Dan. --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= aB5TiY.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------