From: Mark Schreiber hotmail com> Date: 21 mar 2007 Subject: RE: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion Hi Larry Kaufman, If it=92s a desire to profit then has the nsr setup a professional fee= =20 structure to play computers? The prohibition was made after a pro almost= =20 lost. Kazuyoshi Nishimura said if 1 pro loses, it could create the=20 perception that pro players are weaker than the software. It's clear the= =20 prohibition is because they are afraid of losing. It is unfortunate we don=92t have a shogi programmer here to give=20 their opinion about the usefulness of computer vs titleholder without a=20 handicap. Can you give details about the handicap matches between computers and=20 the top pros with mixed results? Have titleholder pros lost to 4 dan pros with a bishop handicap? I am a confused. What are levels between amateur 6 dan and pro 4 dan? Mark Larry Kaufman wrote: >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Mark Schreiber" hotmail com> > To: topica com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 4:30 AM > Subject: RE: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion >=20 >=20 >=20 > To Bernhard, Adam and Everyone, >=20 > The conspiracy theory is not far fetched. Remember the NSR is > paranoid, they forbid pros from playing computers. >=20 > This is not paranoia, it is simply a desire to profit from the=20 > situation. >=20 > Computers are allowed in the Ryu-O tournament. I remember the > computer program Gekisashi won 1 game in the 2005 Ryu-O tournament. Is a > computer playing in this year's Ryu-O tournament? It is interesting to > see if it does better this year. >=20 > The bonanza hardware will not matter when it plays Watanabe? Even if > it uses a supercomputer it will lose. Today's programs are just too > weak. They play at about amateur 6 dan. >=20 > I don't think the programmer can learn anything from playing a pro > that is so much stronger. It's the same if you or I were to play > Watanabe. >=20 > Let's not exaggerate. The difference in strength is enough to predic= t=20 > the winner, but not so great that nothing can be learned. >=20 > If a computer plays someone of equal strength then some > strategies will fail and some strategies will succeed. The programmer > can see if his changes cause a failure or it causes a success. But if > the computer or anyone plays a pro that is 12 levels stronger, then > every move leads to failure. The programmer will never see his changes > make a difference. Even if the computer makes better moves that a weak > pro would make they will also fail. The programmer will never learn > anything from playing a player so much stronger because all moves lead > to failure. >=20 > I don't think Bonanza playing a 9 dan pro with a handicap makes any > sense. The handicap would have to be tremendous. >=20 > Actually the handicap in recent matches between computers and the to= p=20 > pros has been bishop, with mixed results. I wouldn't call that=20 > "tremendous";=20 > pros have been known to beat other pros at bishop handicap. Basically I= =20 > think you are overstating the difference between a top pro and a top=20 > amateur. >=20 > Better for Bonanza to > play a player with a similar strength, a 6 dan amateur without a > handicap. >=20 > Maybe better, but both are interesting. >=20 > Mark >=20 > Larry Kaufman >=20 > Bernhard M=E4rz wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > Bonanza will be slaughter. Can we learn anything from this? I like to= > > > see more computer vs man matches. But make them balanced. Shouldn't > > > Bonanza be playing a 6 or maybe 7 dan? > > > > I believe, WE (!!!) can not learn much. > > > > But I assume, the programmers of Shogi programs can learn from such > > games to improve there programs. > > > > Also (as you said) it could be interesting so see more computer vs man > > matches. > > Nevertheless it's not so important for me, to watch such a game. I like= > > to know the strength of computers (for this reason results against 6 da= n > > > > humans would be interesting) and like to play against it for myself. > > > > On the other side I would be more interested in handicap games, means > > make the games balanced and give Bonanza a 50% chance against 9 dan > > pros. > > > > Bernhard >=20 > Adam wrote: > > > > Hallo Mark, Larry and all, > > > > do You really think that such conspiration theories are true, Mark? :) > > Psychological value of Bonanzas slaughter by Watanabe RyuOh for pros > > is undeniable. But isn't it a bit childish? Maybe NSR wish to > > publicaly demonstrate difference in strength and thus help in > > development of better shogi playing programs. Advancements in CS is > > unstoppable, and unlike human minds computers simply have "no" limits. > > So time when computer beat up pro will come. THis raise (imho!) an > > interesting question: RuyOh tournament is open even to amateur > > players. What about computers? Are they allowed too? How will NSR > > react to possibility of computer become 42th ryuoh... > > > > As for upcomming match. Do you know any configuration details? Will it > > be some special hardware/bonanza version playing with Watanabe RyuOh? > > Or just regular "Thoshiba notebook" and "bonanza from web". > > > > Cheers, > > Adam Skalny > > > > Quoting Mark Schreiber hotmail com>: > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > Thanks for the ratings clarification. I have a theory on why this= > > > match was arranged. > > > > > > I can't imagine the Bonanza programmer will want his program to b= e > > > clobbered. The Japan shogi association arranged this match. With all = the > > > talk about how strong the computer will be some pros might be getting= > > > scared. This match will give the weaker pros pointers on how to beat = the > > > computer. The match is also to give the pros a boost of confidence. I= f > > > they are more confident then the Pros will play better against the > > > computer. It is also to show that shogi is so much harder than wester= n > > > chess that it is in a different class then western chess. > > > > > > I think it will take about 20 years, 2027, when a computer can be= at > > > the best shogi pro. So the pros have time before they need to worry. > > > Mark > > > > > > Larry Kaufman wrote: > > >> > > >> It seems strange to me too. Bonanza is roughly on a par with to= p=20 > > >> level > > >> amateur players, but such players would probably only have a 5% chan= ce > > >> at > > >> best against a pro titleholder. So unless Bonanza has been improved > > >> greatly, > > >> it's just a publicity stunt. > > >> Incidentally, Bonanza is considered to be on a par with Amateur= 6=20 > > >> Dan > > >> players, not Pro 6 Dan players, so it's even more unreasonable than= =20 > > >> your > > >> > > >> question implies. > > >> By the way, the final score of the Rybka-Ehlvest pawn handicap= =20 > > >> chess > > >> match was 5.5-2.5 for Rybka (giving a pawn). > > >> > > >> Larry Kaufman > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Mark Schreiber" hotmail com> > > >> To: topica com> > > >> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:56 PM > > >> Subject: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > Talking about handicap systems to level the playing field. If > > >> > Bonanza is maybe a 6 dan why is it playing a 9 dan? 9 dan Ryu-O= =20 > > >> > Champion > > >> > Watanabe said, "I don't think I'll lose". Then he said, "A loss ca= n > > >> > never be permitted". Does anyone have any doubt what will be the= =20 > > >> > result? > > >> > Bonanza will be slaughter. Can we learn anything from this? I like= to > > >> > see more computer vs man matches. But make them balanced. Shouldn'= t > > >> > Bonanza be playing a 6 or maybe 7 dan? > > >> > Mark > > >> > > > >> > Larry Kaufman wrote: > > >> >> By a curious twist of fate, just as computer shogi programs = are > > >> >> reaching > > >> >> the level where they can compete with pros without a handica= p=20 > > >> >> (as > > >> >> planned for Bonanza shortly), in chess the opposite has just= > > >> >> occurred. A > > >> >> match is now taking place in which computer chess program= =20 > > >> >> "Rybka" is > > >> >> giving a pawn handicap to a renowned grandmaster (Jaan Ehlve= st)=20 > > >> >> in > > >> >> an > > >> >> eight game match, and the computer is leading 3-0! > > >> >> You can either take this as evidence of the superiority of= =20 > > >> >> shogi > > >> >> over > > >> >> chess, or as a forecast of things to come in shogi. I think= =20 > > >> >> it's not > > >> >> so > > >> >> many years away that a shogi program will spot the Meijin a= =20 > > >> >> lance > > >> >> and > > >> >> defeat him. Few could have imagined this would happen in che= ss,=20 > > >> >> but > > >> >> it > > >> >> has, and shogi will be next. > > >> >> > > >> >> Larry Kaufman, chess International Master and Shogi amateur = 5=20 > > >> >> Dan. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Mark 2 --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= aB5TiY.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------