From: Larry Kaufman comcast net> Date: 20 mar 2007 Subject: Re: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Mark Schreiber" hotmail com> To: topica com> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 4:30 AM Subject: RE: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion To Bernhard, Adam and Everyone, The conspiracy theory is not far fetched. Remember the NSR is paranoid, they forbid pros from playing computers. This is not paranoia, it is simply a desire to profit from the=20 situation. Computers are allowed in the Ryu-O tournament. I remember the computer program Gekisashi won 1 game in the 2005 Ryu-O tournament. Is a computer playing in this year's Ryu-O tournament? It is interesting to see if it does better this year. The bonanza hardware will not matter when it plays Watanabe? Even if it uses a supercomputer it will lose. Today's programs are just too weak. They play at about amateur 6 dan. I don't think the programmer can learn anything from playing a pro that is so much stronger. It's the same if you or I were to play Watanabe. Let's not exaggerate. The difference in strength is enough to predict= =20 the winner, but not so great that nothing can be learned. If a computer plays someone of equal strength then some strategies will fail and some strategies will succeed. The programmer can see if his changes cause a failure or it causes a success. But if the computer or anyone plays a pro that is 12 levels stronger, then every move leads to failure. The programmer will never see his changes make a difference. Even if the computer makes better moves that a weak pro would make they will also fail. The programmer will never learn anything from playing a player so much stronger because all moves lead to failure. I don't think Bonanza playing a 9 dan pro with a handicap makes any sense. The handicap would have to be tremendous. Actually the handicap in recent matches between computers and the top= =20 pros has been bishop, with mixed results. I wouldn't call that "tremendous"= ;=20 pros have been known to beat other pros at bishop handicap. Basically I=20 think you are overstating the difference between a top pro and a top=20 amateur. Better for Bonanza to play a player with a similar strength, a 6 dan amateur without a handicap. Maybe better, but both are interesting. Mark Larry Kaufman Bernhard M=E4rz wrote: > > > Hi, > > > Bonanza will be slaughter. Can we learn anything from this? I like to > > see more computer vs man matches. But make them balanced. Shouldn't > > Bonanza be playing a 6 or maybe 7 dan? > > I believe, WE (!!!) can not learn much. > > But I assume, the programmers of Shogi programs can learn from such > games to improve there programs. > > Also (as you said) it could be interesting so see more computer vs man > matches. > Nevertheless it's not so important for me, to watch such a game. I like > to know the strength of computers (for this reason results against 6 dan > > humans would be interesting) and like to play against it for myself. > > On the other side I would be more interested in handicap games, means > make the games balanced and give Bonanza a 50% chance against 9 dan > pros. > > Bernhard Adam wrote: > > Hallo Mark, Larry and all, > > do You really think that such conspiration theories are true, Mark? :) > Psychological value of Bonanzas slaughter by Watanabe RyuOh for pros > is undeniable. But isn't it a bit childish? Maybe NSR wish to > publicaly demonstrate difference in strength and thus help in > development of better shogi playing programs. Advancements in CS is > unstoppable, and unlike human minds computers simply have "no" limits. > So time when computer beat up pro will come. THis raise (imho!) an > interesting question: RuyOh tournament is open even to amateur > players. What about computers? Are they allowed too? How will NSR > react to possibility of computer become 42th ryuoh... > > As for upcomming match. Do you know any configuration details? Will it > be some special hardware/bonanza version playing with Watanabe RyuOh? > Or just regular "Thoshiba notebook" and "bonanza from web". > > Cheers, > Adam Skalny > > Quoting Mark Schreiber hotmail com>: > > > > > Larry, > > Thanks for the ratings clarification. I have a theory on why this > > match was arranged. > > > > I can't imagine the Bonanza programmer will want his program to be > > clobbered. The Japan shogi association arranged this match. With all th= e > > talk about how strong the computer will be some pros might be getting > > scared. This match will give the weaker pros pointers on how to beat th= e > > computer. The match is also to give the pros a boost of confidence. If > > they are more confident then the Pros will play better against the > > computer. It is also to show that shogi is so much harder than western > > chess that it is in a different class then western chess. > > > > I think it will take about 20 years, 2027, when a computer can beat= > > the best shogi pro. So the pros have time before they need to worry. > > Mark > > > > Larry Kaufman wrote: > >> > >> It seems strange to me too. Bonanza is roughly on a par with top= =20 > >> level > >> amateur players, but such players would probably only have a 5% chance= > >> at > >> best against a pro titleholder. So unless Bonanza has been improved > >> greatly, > >> it's just a publicity stunt. > >> Incidentally, Bonanza is considered to be on a par with Amateur 6= =20 > >> Dan > >> players, not Pro 6 Dan players, so it's even more unreasonable than= =20 > >> your > >> > >> question implies. > >> By the way, the final score of the Rybka-Ehlvest pawn handicap= =20 > >> chess > >> match was 5.5-2.5 for Rybka (giving a pawn). > >> > >> Larry Kaufman > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Mark Schreiber" hotmail com> > >> To: topica com> > >> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:56 PM > >> Subject: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion > >> > >> > >> > > >> > Talking about handicap systems to level the playing field. If > >> > Bonanza is maybe a 6 dan why is it playing a 9 dan? 9 dan Ryu-O=20 > >> > Champion > >> > Watanabe said, "I don't think I'll lose". Then he said, "A loss can > >> > never be permitted". Does anyone have any doubt what will be the=20 > >> > result? > >> > Bonanza will be slaughter. Can we learn anything from this? I like t= o > >> > see more computer vs man matches. But make them balanced. Shouldn't > >> > Bonanza be playing a 6 or maybe 7 dan? > >> > Mark > >> > > >> > Larry Kaufman wrote: > >> >> By a curious twist of fate, just as computer shogi programs ar= e > >> >> reaching > >> >> the level where they can compete with pros without a handicap= =20 > >> >> (as > >> >> planned for Bonanza shortly), in chess the opposite has just > >> >> occurred. A > >> >> match is now taking place in which computer chess program=20 > >> >> "Rybka" is > >> >> giving a pawn handicap to a renowned grandmaster (Jaan Ehlvest= )=20 > >> >> in > >> >> an > >> >> eight game match, and the computer is leading 3-0! > >> >> You can either take this as evidence of the superiority of=20 > >> >> shogi > >> >> over > >> >> chess, or as a forecast of things to come in shogi. I think= =20 > >> >> it's not > >> >> so > >> >> many years away that a shogi program will spot the Meijin a= =20 > >> >> lance > >> >> and > >> >> defeat him. Few could have imagined this would happen in chess= ,=20 > >> >> but > >> >> it > >> >> has, and shogi will be next. > >> >> > >> >> Larry Kaufman, chess International Master and Shogi amateur 5= =20 > >> >> Dan. --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= aB5TiY.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------