From: Mark Schreiber hotmail com> Date: 20 mar 2007 Subject: RE: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion To Bernhard, Adam and Everyone, The conspiracy theory is not far fetched. Remember the NSR is=20 paranoid, they forbid pros from playing computers. Computers are allowed in the Ryu-O tournament. I remember the=20 computer program Gekisashi won 1 game in the 2005 Ryu-O tournament. Is a= =20 computer playing in this year=92s Ryu-O tournament? It is interesting to= =20 see if it does better this year. The bonanza hardware will not matter when it plays Watanabe? Even if= =20 it uses a supercomputer it will lose. Today=92s programs are just too=20 weak. They play at about amateur 6 dan. I don=92t think the programmer can learn anything from playing a pro= =20 that is so much stronger. It=92s the same if you or I were to play=20 Watanabe. If a computer plays someone of equal strength then some=20 strategies will fail and some strategies will succeed. The programmer=20 can see if his changes cause a failure or it causes a success. But if=20 the computer or anyone plays a pro that is 12 levels stronger, then=20 every move leads to failure. The programmer will never see his changes=20 make a difference. Even if the computer makes better moves that a weak=20 pro would make they will also fail. The programmer will never learn=20 anything from playing a player so much stronger because all moves lead=20 to failure. I don=92t think Bonanza playing a 9 dan pro with a handicap makes any= =20 sense. The handicap would have to be tremendous. Better for Bonanza to=20 play a player with a similar strength, a 6 dan amateur without a=20 handicap. Mark Bernhard M=E4rz wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > > Bonanza will be slaughter. Can we learn anything from this? I like to= =20 > > see more computer vs man matches. But make them balanced. Shouldn't=20 > > Bonanza be playing a 6 or maybe 7 dan? >=20 > I believe, WE (!!!) can not learn much. >=20 > But I assume, the programmers of Shogi programs can learn from such=20 > games to improve there programs. >=20 > Also (as you said) it could be interesting so see more computer vs man= =20 > matches. > Nevertheless it's not so important for me, to watch such a game. I like= =20 > to know the strength of computers (for this reason results against 6 dan= =20 >=20 > humans would be interesting) and like to play against it for myself. >=20 > On the other side I would be more interested in handicap games, means=20 > make the games balanced and give Bonanza a 50% chance against 9 dan=20 > pros. >=20 > Bernhard Adam wrote: >=20 > Hallo Mark, Larry and all, >=20 > do You really think that such conspiration theories are true, Mark? :) > Psychological value of Bonanzas slaughter by Watanabe RyuOh for pros > is undeniable. But isn't it a bit childish? Maybe NSR wish to > publicaly demonstrate difference in strength and thus help in > development of better shogi playing programs. Advancements in CS is > unstoppable, and unlike human minds computers simply have "no" limits. > So time when computer beat up pro will come. THis raise (imho!) an > interesting question: RuyOh tournament is open even to amateur > players. What about computers? Are they allowed too? How will NSR > react to possibility of computer become 42th ryuoh... >=20 > As for upcomming match. Do you know any configuration details? Will it > be some special hardware/bonanza version playing with Watanabe RyuOh? > Or just regular "Thoshiba notebook" and "bonanza from web". >=20 > Cheers, > Adam Skalny >=20 > Quoting Mark Schreiber hotmail com>: >=20 > > > > Larry, > > Thanks for the ratings clarification. I have a theory on why this > > match was arranged. > > > > I can't imagine the Bonanza programmer will want his program to be > > clobbered. The Japan shogi association arranged this match. With all th= e > > talk about how strong the computer will be some pros might be getting > > scared. This match will give the weaker pros pointers on how to beat th= e > > computer. The match is also to give the pros a boost of confidence. If > > they are more confident then the Pros will play better against the > > computer. It is also to show that shogi is so much harder than western > > chess that it is in a different class then western chess. > > > > I think it will take about 20 years, 2027, when a computer can beat= > > the best shogi pro. So the pros have time before they need to worry. > > Mark > > > > Larry Kaufman wrote: > >> > >> It seems strange to me too. Bonanza is roughly on a par with top = level > >> amateur players, but such players would probably only have a 5% chance= > >> at > >> best against a pro titleholder. So unless Bonanza has been improved > >> greatly, > >> it's just a publicity stunt. > >> Incidentally, Bonanza is considered to be on a par with Amateur 6= Dan > >> players, not Pro 6 Dan players, so it's even more unreasonable than yo= ur > >> > >> question implies. > >> By the way, the final score of the Rybka-Ehlvest pawn handicap ch= ess > >> match was 5.5-2.5 for Rybka (giving a pawn). > >> > >> Larry Kaufman > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Mark Schreiber" hotmail com> > >> To: topica com> > >> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:56 PM > >> Subject: Bonanza vs Ryu-O Champion > >> > >> > >> > > >> > Talking about handicap systems to level the playing field. If > >> > Bonanza is maybe a 6 dan why is it playing a 9 dan? 9 dan Ryu-O Cham= pion > >> > Watanabe said, "I don't think I'll lose". Then he said, "A loss can > >> > never be permitted". Does anyone have any doubt what will be the res= ult? > >> > Bonanza will be slaughter. Can we learn anything from this? I like t= o > >> > see more computer vs man matches. But make them balanced. Shouldn't > >> > Bonanza be playing a 6 or maybe 7 dan? > >> > Mark > >> > > >> > Larry Kaufman wrote: > >> >> By a curious twist of fate, just as computer shogi programs ar= e > >> >> reaching > >> >> the level where they can compete with pros without a handicap = (as > >> >> planned for Bonanza shortly), in chess the opposite has just > >> >> occurred. A > >> >> match is now taking place in which computer chess program "Ryb= ka" is > >> >> giving a pawn handicap to a renowned grandmaster (Jaan Ehlvest= ) in > >> >> an > >> >> eight game match, and the computer is leading 3-0! > >> >> You can either take this as evidence of the superiority of sho= gi > >> >> over > >> >> chess, or as a forecast of things to come in shogi. I think it= 's not > >> >> so > >> >> many years away that a shogi program will spot the Meijin a la= nce > >> >> and > >> >> defeat him. Few could have imagined this would happen in chess= , but > >> >> it > >> >> has, and shogi will be next. > >> >> > >> >> Larry Kaufman, chess International Master and Shogi amateur 5 = Dan. --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= aB5TiY.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------