From: Bernhard März arcor de> Date: 16 mar 2007 Subject: RE: Shogi22680 Hi, > On a first thought I only wanted to randomize the starting position in > shogi minimally to keep the game as close to the original as possible. I > only changed the starting position of rook and bishop in the second row. > For symatrical reasons and to stay close to the normal game the rook is > always on the right. That gives 40 different positions. I think this > enough variation for most of us I think. I can see "only" 36 different positions. That's not realy important, but I'm only interested in your thinking. In my eyes the different positions of the rook is not so important. With "only" one simple move you can move it to the other places (at the=20 same side of the bishop). Maybe because I'm not a strong player, loosing time for one move is not=20 so a big disadvantage. Oh, and furthermore I have to tell, that I'm mostly play ranging rook.=20= =20 ;-) So in my opinion, this are "only" 8 remarkable different positions. > But if you want to go a bit further, I would only change the generals on > their four squares next to the king. In my opinion this makes very little changes. When one gold and one silver is at EACH side (4 possibilities), the=20 results are very similar. For example the left silver often moves to 6h or 7h and it doesn't=20 matter anything, if it was at 6i or 7i before. Also for the gold I=20 didn't see much difference. It's maybe "only" one move faster to build=20 the castle. (But the oponent also can make his castle one move faster in the same=20 way.) But at least two gold at one side and two silver at the other needs new=20 strategies. ------------------------------------------------------------------ I believe, there are two aspects (two different aims): I told, I was inspirated by Fischer Random Chess. "Fischer's goal was to= =20 create a chess variant in which chess creativity and talent would be=20 more important than memorization and analysis of opening moves." (from=20 Wikipedia.org) A) Jochum speaking exactly about this thing for shogi, so he preferes=20 only minimal changes to reach this aim. In my eyes (much weaker player!!!) the knowledge about openings is not=20 so important. The knowledge about opening STRATEGIES instead is much bigger (in shogi=20 than in chess). B) With my random shogi variant I thought about creating new ideas and=20 new strategies in the game. For example, often I move my king to 8g. Mostly the bishop of my oponent= =20 stays at this "king-diagonaly" so for example at 2b. And so many (most)=20 games (against Bonanza) happens very similar. My week point is 7g. Also=20 my pawn have moved before to 7f, so there is an empty space. And the=20 pawns between the oponent bishop and my king can be easily attacked by=20 pawns. And sometimes I move my silver to 7f, then the oponents knight=20 attack it also ... I hope you understand: this are standard strategies of standard shogi.=20 It's because the positions of the bishops and MAINLY because of the=20 positions of the knights. With my random shogi, you have to find NEW IDEAS!!! KNOWLEDGE about this weak point at f7, knowledge which strategies to=20 use, knowledge where and at which moment you have to make which moves=20 are no longer working. You have to be more creatively. THIS aspect makes my random shogi interesting for ME! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Finaly to say: I don't like to change the Tournament mode. At this moment shogi is (at least for me) far away, that opening=20 knowledge will reduce the fun of this game. The MAIN tournaments should stay like they are. At this moment I see random shogi as an interesting idea to get new=20 inspiration. Maybe specially for weak players it's good for learning. Also Adam (=3D"only low kyu player") likes this variant with complete=20 randomization, so maybe it's true, that stronger player prefere less=20 randomization. So I will end with one more tip: it's good to play standard shogi and=20 GIVE handicap, because then you realy learn the value of the weaker=20 pieces. I for myself often keeps my knights back (for example when I=20 receive handicap against Bonanza), because it's much more danger that my= =20 oponent will catch them and then have much power, instead of helping me. ------------------------------------------------------------------ > yesterday we tried shogi22k irl. It's bit unbalanced, but yet *VERY* > enjoyable game to play. Thanks. I'm also enjoyed, when I was able to make you happy. > Even setting up pieces on board is fun. As for > us we proceed this way: First both players set up standard shogi > position. Both players than remove all pieces, but pawns. Put them to > some sort of sack or any other non-translucent container. This idea I also wrote at my (german) page, that probably this is the=20 best way. ;-) > Removed pieces are randomly taken from container and redeployed using=20 > ito or > ohashii ryuu. Oh, so you make a REALY COMPLETE randomization!!! :-8 Hmm, I didn't know, if it's good to allow rook being at first line. At first thinking I don't like the rook at first line, but maybe I=20 should also test it first. ;-) Of course with big randomization there will be some "stupid" starting=20 positions, but this also can be solved, that the players have a limited=20 numbers of "vetos" to reshuffle again. Also when NOT played with symmetrical starting positions, maybe ONE=20 player can decide to reshuffle (as often he likes) and the OTHER player=20 decide which side of the random starting position he will play. Bernhard By the way: probably all in this shogi-list knows about ito and ohashi=20 ryu, but nevertheless here two links: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Shogi_ohashi_ryu.png http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Shogi_ito_ryu.png --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= aB5TiY.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------