From: Darren <sundowner62 <at> hotmail <dot> com>
Date: 09 mar 2007
Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi



>>That's ok Alain,

Unfortunately I have the same problem trying to find a board here in 
Australia.

Darren
>From: Alain Vanhentenryck <alain.vanhentenryck <at> gmail <dot> com>
>Reply-To: shogi <at> topica <dot> com
>To: shogi <at> topica <dot> com
>Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi
>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:35:58 -0800
>
>Thank you very much Darren and Doug.
>If I need complementary explanation I contact you directly.
>Like Sam Sloan suggested, Unfortunately we do not have
>a Korean Shop in Brussel or Antwerp...
>
>Alain.
>
>
>On 06/03/07, Darren <sundowner62 <at> hotmail <dot> com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Hello Alain,
>>
>>Looks as though  Doug has already answered your question, let me know if
>>you
>>need any more help.
>>
>>Darren
>>(Australia)
>>
>>
>> >From: Alain Vanhentenryck <alain.vanhentenryck <at> gmail <dot> com>
>> >Reply-To: shogi <at> topica <dot> com
>> >To: shogi <at> topica <dot> com
>> >Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi
>> >Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:12:44 -0800
>> >
>> >Hello Darren.
>> >
>> >I play chess and shogi, solving chess problems and tsume shogi's,
>> >know the rules of Xaingqui and  I can loose all my games in go,
>> >but,
>> >I never found a site on intenet with the OFFICIAL rules of
>> >Korean Chess in English. I did even not found a board in Belgium.
>> >
>> >Is it possible that somebody send me a link to the official korean
>> >chess rules ?
>> >
>> >Thank you very Much.
>> >
>> >Alain Vanhentenryck.
>> >(Belgium)
>> >
>> >
>> >On 06/03/07, Darren <sundowner62 <at> hotmail <dot> com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Hi Diceman,
>> >>
>> >>Nice article , I prety much agree with what you're saying.
>> >>Shogi is my favourite game , I also like Xiangqui and Korean Chess,
>>though
>> >>unfortunatley , I've only played a handfull of games the latter.
>> >>
>> >>Check out this site for Makruk :     ThaiGB  it'd also got Shogi and 
>>XQ.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Regrads,
>> >>
>> >>Darren
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >From: Diceman <shogi <at> earthlink <dot> net>
>> >> >Reply-To: shogi <at> topica <dot> com
>> >> >To: shogi <at> topica <dot> com
>> >> >Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi
>> >> >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:16:40 -0500 (GMT-05
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >${top_html_ad}
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >As a proponent of shogi, xiangqi, and chess,as well asmyriad chess
>> >> >variants, this topicbrought forth by Leung-san is one that never
>>ceases
>> >>to
>> >> >fascinate me. After playingall three games for nearly two decades, I
>> >> >still find eachone unique and enjoyable in its own right. While
>> >>primarily
>> >> >a chess player, mostly due to geography, I have always found shogi 
>>and
>> >> >xiangqi to be just as playable and challenging. More importantly, 
>>they
>> >> >seem to strengthen my chess abilities while lending an air of
>>freshness
>> >>not
>> >> >normally found in other games, chess variants or not.
>> >> >
>> >> >For many years I've argued that shogi and xiangqi are not chess
>> >>variants,
>> >> >since chess is a "variant" itself. This brings me to the "family" vs.
>> >> >variant argument: rather than being variants per se, shogi and 
>>xiangqi
>> >> >aremore like chess "cousins." I refer to both games as members of 
>>"the
>> >> >seven chesses"- seven games which were born from the same origin and
>> >>have
>> >> >all been widely played in some part of the world. These "chesses"
>> >>include
>> >> >shogi, xiangqi, chess, janggi (Korean chess), makruk (Thai chess),
>> >>shatranj
>> >> >(Persian chess), and chaturanga (Indian chess). While I must admit
>> >> >thatthese last two games, shatranj and chaturanga, may deserve to be
>> >> >excluded from the group of relevant chess family members, as they are
>>no
>> >> >longer played, I still like to keep them in the group, since they are
>> >>the
>> >> >historical link between chess in the West and the four "chesses" of
>>the
>> >>Far
>> >> >East. And don't get me started on which game from the Middle East 
>>came
>> >> >first!
>> >> >
>> >> >But perhaps out of all seven games, or five if you're just counting
>>ones
>> >> >played today, the three Leung-san brings up are the most relevant. 
>>Not
>> >>to
>> >> >discount makruk and janggi, but it seems that by far xiangqi, chess,
>>and
>> >> >shogi are the most widely played and well-known chess games, and for
>> >>this
>> >> >reason I play these three games by far more often than any other game
>> >> >(including non-chess games like Risk and poker, which I also believe
>>can
>> >> >help your chess game as well, but maybe not quite as well as shogi 
>>and
>> >> >xiangqi). I have played chess and shogi online, too, and thanks to a
>> >> >recent email from Leung-san, I plan to play xiangqi online in the
>>future
>> >> >(if anyone knows of a makruk or janggi server, please do tell),
>>sothere
>> >> >are fortunately many opportunities to play all three for everyone. 
>>The
>> >> >accessibility of the gamesmakes thisthread one which can continue
>> >> >indefinitely, since everyone has a chance to try each one out. The
>> >>thread
>> >> >could be broadened in the future, too, since there are serversfor
>>chess
>> >> >variants as well (bughouse and crazyhouse being by far the most
>>exciting
>> >> >and relevant to shogi, but that's another thread!).
>> >> >
>> >> >Now I'd like to make some brief comments on Leung-san's email, and
>>then
>> >>see
>> >> >what others' experiences have been like between the three games...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >-----Original Message-----
>> >> >
>> >> >There are 64 and 81 squares in chess and shogi boards and 90 grid
>>points
>> >>in
>> >> >xiangqi board, such that xiangqi board is the largest whilst
>>chessboard
>> >>is
>> >> >the smallest.
>> >> >
>> >> >If not for drops, shogi might move unbearably slowly. Chess, on the
>> >>other
>> >> >hand, features a relatively packed game from the onset, so that the
>> >>opening
>> >> >is more exciting than the other two games; however, this can lead to
>> >>rapid
>> >> >trades and a quicker path to theendgame.
>> >> >
>> >> >This difference in opening strategy, in my opinion, is due to the
>> >> >difference in board density whereby xiangqi board is less densely
>> >>occupied
>> >> >and the strong pieces are less severely blocked and threatened by
>>other
>> >> >pieces and become more powerful.
>> >> >
>> >> >Xiangqi is probably the most balancedgame of the three. The board is
>> >> >neither compact nor full of pieces, but the lack of density and open
>> >>lines
>> >> >allow the long-range pieces to get things going quickly. My 
>>experience
>> >>has
>> >> >been that trades happen less quickly in xiangqi than in chess, and
>> >>because
>> >> >more pieces are long-ranged than in shogi, the action gets going
>> >>rapidly.
>> >> >So in the opening, I find chess positions to be the most dangerous,
>>then
>> >> >xiangqi positions, and finally shogi ones (although you can pull off
>> >> >relatively quick wins in all three).
>> >> >
>> >> >DRAW
>> >> >
>> >> >Due to the reusable pieces feature, shogi games almost never draw
>> >> >
>> >> >I don't care much for draws, so chess and xiangqi fall behind shogi 
>>in
>> >>this
>> >> >category. However, I must admit I do not remember ever drawing a
>>xiangqi
>> >> >game before! I'm sure this is because I've never played a "serious"
>> >> >xiangqi game (i.e. tournament or rated game).
>> >> >
>> >> >In the later half of a shogi game, it is easy to say that a move is
>> >>either
>> >> >attacking or defending, but less often to say both or neither. Such
>> >> >distinction is less obvious in xiangqi, and probably in chess as 
>>well.
>> >> >Why? The short distant feature of shogi pieces ( e.g. pawn, gold,
>> >>silver)
>> >> >is a reason. Another is our desire to get not less than a half point.
>> >> >
>> >> >Great point. I don't see too many moves in shogi which can be
>>described
>> >>as
>> >> >both offensive and defensive. Of course, this could be related to the
>> >>fact
>> >> >that defending in shogi is usually deemed equivalent to suicide! Not
>> >>only
>> >> >do drops make shogi less drawish, but it also makes defending both
>> >> >unattractive and nearly impossible.
>> >> >
>> >> >The half point consideration sometimes makes deciding a move
>>difficult.
>> >> >And this may be further complicated by the performances of ourselves
>>and
>> >> >the other players in the other rounds, especially in Swiss and round
>> >> >robin. But in shogi, we don't care that but simply fight, early or
>> >>lately.
>> >> >
>> >> >I have always taken for granted the time that I have saved by not
>> >>wasting
>> >> >time and energy running away from the shogi board to go see if I need
>>to
>> >> >play for a win or a draw!
>> >> >
>> >> >KING'S SAFETY & CASTLING
>> >> >
>> >> >Perhaps the most "aesthetically pleasing" aspect of shogi is its
>> >>free-form
>> >> >castling. While a xiangqi king isalways a sitting duck and a chess
>>king
>> >> >only has two options for castling, there are innumerable ways to
>>castle
>> >>in
>> >> >shogi. And in shogi the castlesfrequently have 2-4 stages involved,
>> >> >making defense more flexible and attacking more complex - no one
>>attack
>> >> >method is always the most effective, since thedefender can adjust
>>their
>> >> >castle accordingly.
>> >> >
>> >> >CHECKMATE & ENDING
>> >> >
>> >> >Again, dropping captured pieces makes shogi unique, especially in
>>mating
>> >> >skills.
>> >> >
>> >> >To most xiangqi and chess players, shogi really has no endgame at 
>>all!
>> >> >
>> >> >And material advantage becomes less important in shogi endgames as
>> >>speed,
>> >> >king safety issues, etc. arise.
>> >> >
>> >> >It is a testament to how dynamic shogi is that there is no "point
>>scale"
>> >> >for the pieces.
>> >> >
>> >> >On the other hand, many chess endgames have been "solved" with
>> >>established
>> >> >winning or drawing procedures.
>> >> >
>> >> >Shogi openings and endgames are "less traveled roads" compared to
>>chess.
>> >> >If you view the game as an art, you might prefer shogi; if you see it
>>as
>> >>a
>> >> >science, you might lean more toward chess (I can't say much about
>> >>xiangqi,
>> >> >since I've never even played a rated game).
>> >> >
>> >> >In xiangqi, the pieces are not as mobile as in chess, especially the
>> >>king.
>> >> >
>> >> >Xiangqi games are made very interesting by the king's ability to 
>>"move
>> >>like
>> >> >a rook," at least in keeping the enemy king off of the same open 
>>file.
>> >> >This gets amplified as the pieces come off the board, making xiangqi
>> >> >endgames especially unique.
>> >> >
>> >> >In xiangqi endgames, we often make waiting moves to force our
>>opponents
>> >> >move from good to bad or from safe to danger positions.
>> >> >
>> >> >Now that you mention it, it does seem to me that "zugzwang" is used
>>more
>> >> >often and at an earlier stage than in chess.
>> >> >
>> >> >When applying in shogi, this is to nullify any possible good moves 
>>for
>> >>your
>> >> >opponent and prepare for a later fight. (In shogi, we must fight -
>> >>sooner
>> >> >or later.)
>> >> >
>> >> >In shogi you can't reallystop your opponent, just contain them. If 
>>you
>> >> >ever did get to the point where you could use "zugzwang" in shogi, I
>> >> >imagine the result would already be a foregone conclusion.
>> >> >
>> >> >OVERALL
>> >> >
>> >> >Maybe, being a xiangqi player, I am fortunate enough to see this 
>>early
>> >>from
>> >> >a very different perspective. When I started playing shogi with
>>Japanese
>> >> >people, I found their attacking and mating skills almost 
>>unbelievable.
>> >> >Then I started practise tsumeshogi and hisshi (brinkmate) problems
>> >> >intensely and still keep exercises today. In casual games, I often
>>make
>> >> >over aggressive moves, put myself into danger and sometimes lose
>> >>terribly.
>> >> >That is not to play unseriously or being over-prided, but a helpful
>>way
>> >>to
>> >> >practise manage the unmanageable complications.
>> >> >
>> >> >This same process is how shogi turned me from a chess "A" player to 
>>an
>> >> >expert. Shogi opens your eyes to a new way of playing. If you were
>> >> >defensive as a chess or xiangqi player, you will by force become more
>> >> >aggressive after taking up Japanese chess.
>> >> >
>> >> >I have no idea how well these words provide an alternate insight on
>> >>shogi
>> >> >for chess players. But to apply the skills from one game onto another
>>is
>> >> >amazing for me. Wish you like.
>> >> >
>> >> >It's definitely neat to see what a xiangqi-first player thinks about
>> >> >shogi. I've only heard chess players tell me their stories in the
>>past,
>> >>so
>> >> >this is an eye-opener for me. Thanks for sharing!
>> >> >
>> >> >Cheers,
>> >> >
>> >> >Doug Dysart
>> >> >
>> >> >P.S. If anyone would like to continue this thread off-list, you can
>>join
>> >>me
>> >> >at http://groups.msn.com/xiangqi or http://groups.msn.com/shogi .
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Sincerely,
>> >> >Doug Dysart
>> >> >Ohio Shogi Club founder${bottom_html_ad}
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>_________________________________________________________________
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
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>>
>>

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