From: Alain Vanhentenryck gmail com> Date: 7 mar 2007 Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi ------=_Part_25499_23723687.1173317758950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thank you very much Darren and Doug. If I need complementary explanation I contact you directly. Like Sam Sloan suggested, Unfortunately we do not have a Korean Shop in Brussel or Antwerp... Alain. On 06/03/07, Darren hotmail com> wrote: > > > Hello Alain, > > Looks as though Doug has already answered your question, let me know if > you > need any more help. > > Darren > (Australia) > > > >From: Alain Vanhentenryck gmail com> > >Reply-To: shogi topica com > >To: shogi topica com > >Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi > >Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:12:44 -0800 > > > >Hello Darren. > > > >I play chess and shogi, solving chess problems and tsume shogi's, > >know the rules of Xaingqui and I can loose all my games in go, > >but, > >I never found a site on intenet with the OFFICIAL rules of > >Korean Chess in English. I did even not found a board in Belgium. > > > >Is it possible that somebody send me a link to the official korean > >chess rules ? > > > >Thank you very Much. > > > >Alain Vanhentenryck. > >(Belgium) > > > > > >On 06/03/07, Darren hotmail com> wrote: > >> > >> > >>Hi Diceman, > >> > >>Nice article , I prety much agree with what you're saying. > >>Shogi is my favourite game , I also like Xiangqui and Korean Chess, > though > >>unfortunatley , I've only played a handfull of games the latter. > >> > >>Check out this site for Makruk : ThaiGB it'd also got Shogi and XQ. > >> > >> > >>Regrads, > >> > >>Darren > >> > >> > >> >From: Diceman earthlink net> > >> >Reply-To: shogi topica com > >> >To: shogi topica com > >> >Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi > >> >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:16:40 -0500 (GMT-05 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >${top_html_ad} > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >As a proponent of shogi, xiangqi, and chess,as well asmyriad chess > >> >variants, this topicbrought forth by Leung-san is one that never > ceases > >>to > >> >fascinate me. After playingall three games for nearly two decades, I > >> >still find eachone unique and enjoyable in its own right. While > >>primarily > >> >a chess player, mostly due to geography, I have always found shogi and > >> >xiangqi to be just as playable and challenging. More importantly, they > >> >seem to strengthen my chess abilities while lending an air of > freshness > >>not > >> >normally found in other games, chess variants or not. > >> > > >> >For many years I've argued that shogi and xiangqi are not chess > >>variants, > >> >since chess is a "variant" itself. This brings me to the "family" vs. > >> >variant argument: rather than being variants per se, shogi and xiangqi > >> >aremore like chess "cousins." I refer to both games as members of "the > >> >seven chesses"- seven games which were born from the same origin and > >>have > >> >all been widely played in some part of the world. These "chesses" > >>include > >> >shogi, xiangqi, chess, janggi (Korean chess), makruk (Thai chess), > >>shatranj > >> >(Persian chess), and chaturanga (Indian chess). While I must admit > >> >thatthese last two games, shatranj and chaturanga, may deserve to be > >> >excluded from the group of relevant chess family members, as they are > no > >> >longer played, I still like to keep them in the group, since they are > >>the > >> >historical link between chess in the West and the four "chesses" of > the > >>Far > >> >East. And don't get me started on which game from the Middle East came > >> >first! > >> > > >> >But perhaps out of all seven games, or five if you're just counting > ones > >> >played today, the three Leung-san brings up are the most relevant. Not > >>to > >> >discount makruk and janggi, but it seems that by far xiangqi, chess, > and > >> >shogi are the most widely played and well-known chess games, and for > >>this > >> >reason I play these three games by far more often than any other game > >> >(including non-chess games like Risk and poker, which I also believe > can > >> >help your chess game as well, but maybe not quite as well as shogi and > >> >xiangqi). I have played chess and shogi online, too, and thanks to a > >> >recent email from Leung-san, I plan to play xiangqi online in the > future > >> >(if anyone knows of a makruk or janggi server, please do tell), > sothere > >> >are fortunately many opportunities to play all three for everyone. The > >> >accessibility of the gamesmakes thisthread one which can continue > >> >indefinitely, since everyone has a chance to try each one out. The > >>thread > >> >could be broadened in the future, too, since there are serversfor > chess > >> >variants as well (bughouse and crazyhouse being by far the most > exciting > >> >and relevant to shogi, but that's another thread!). > >> > > >> >Now I'd like to make some brief comments on Leung-san's email, and > then > >>see > >> >what others' experiences have been like between the three games... > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >-----Original Message----- > >> > > >> >There are 64 and 81 squares in chess and shogi boards and 90 grid > points > >>in > >> >xiangqi board, such that xiangqi board is the largest whilst > chessboard > >>is > >> >the smallest. > >> > > >> >If not for drops, shogi might move unbearably slowly. Chess, on the > >>other > >> >hand, features a relatively packed game from the onset, so that the > >>opening > >> >is more exciting than the other two games; however, this can lead to > >>rapid > >> >trades and a quicker path to theendgame. > >> > > >> >This difference in opening strategy, in my opinion, is due to the > >> >difference in board density whereby xiangqi board is less densely > >>occupied > >> >and the strong pieces are less severely blocked and threatened by > other > >> >pieces and become more powerful. > >> > > >> >Xiangqi is probably the most balancedgame of the three. The board is > >> >neither compact nor full of pieces, but the lack of density and open > >>lines > >> >allow the long-range pieces to get things going quickly. My experience > >>has > >> >been that trades happen less quickly in xiangqi than in chess, and > >>because > >> >more pieces are long-ranged than in shogi, the action gets going > >>rapidly. > >> >So in the opening, I find chess positions to be the most dangerous, > then > >> >xiangqi positions, and finally shogi ones (although you can pull off > >> >relatively quick wins in all three). > >> > > >> >DRAW > >> > > >> >Due to the reusable pieces feature, shogi games almost never draw > >> > > >> >I don't care much for draws, so chess and xiangqi fall behind shogi in > >>this > >> >category. However, I must admit I do not remember ever drawing a > xiangqi > >> >game before! I'm sure this is because I've never played a "serious" > >> >xiangqi game (i.e. tournament or rated game). > >> > > >> >In the later half of a shogi game, it is easy to say that a move is > >>either > >> >attacking or defending, but less often to say both or neither. Such > >> >distinction is less obvious in xiangqi, and probably in chess as well. > >> >Why? The short distant feature of shogi pieces ( e.g. pawn, gold, > >>silver) > >> >is a reason. Another is our desire to get not less than a half point. > >> > > >> >Great point. I don't see too many moves in shogi which can be > described > >>as > >> >both offensive and defensive. Of course, this could be related to the > >>fact > >> >that defending in shogi is usually deemed equivalent to suicide! Not > >>only > >> >do drops make shogi less drawish, but it also makes defending both > >> >unattractive and nearly impossible. > >> > > >> >The half point consideration sometimes makes deciding a move > difficult. > >> >And this may be further complicated by the performances of ourselves > and > >> >the other players in the other rounds, especially in Swiss and round > >> >robin. But in shogi, we don't care that but simply fight, early or > >>lately. > >> > > >> >I have always taken for granted the time that I have saved by not > >>wasting > >> >time and energy running away from the shogi board to go see if I need > to > >> >play for a win or a draw! > >> > > >> >KING'S SAFETY & CASTLING > >> > > >> >Perhaps the most "aesthetically pleasing" aspect of shogi is its > >>free-form > >> >castling. While a xiangqi king isalways a sitting duck and a chess > king > >> >only has two options for castling, there are innumerable ways to > castle > >>in > >> >shogi. And in shogi the castlesfrequently have 2-4 stages involved, > >> >making defense more flexible and attacking more complex - no one > attack > >> >method is always the most effective, since thedefender can adjust > their > >> >castle accordingly. > >> > > >> >CHECKMATE & ENDING > >> > > >> >Again, dropping captured pieces makes shogi unique, especially in > mating > >> >skills. > >> > > >> >To most xiangqi and chess players, shogi really has no endgame at all! > >> > > >> >And material advantage becomes less important in shogi endgames as > >>speed, > >> >king safety issues, etc. arise. > >> > > >> >It is a testament to how dynamic shogi is that there is no "point > scale" > >> >for the pieces. > >> > > >> >On the other hand, many chess endgames have been "solved" with > >>established > >> >winning or drawing procedures. > >> > > >> >Shogi openings and endgames are "less traveled roads" compared to > chess. > >> >If you view the game as an art, you might prefer shogi; if you see it > as > >>a > >> >science, you might lean more toward chess (I can't say much about > >>xiangqi, > >> >since I've never even played a rated game). > >> > > >> >In xiangqi, the pieces are not as mobile as in chess, especially the > >>king. > >> > > >> >Xiangqi games are made very interesting by the king's ability to "move > >>like > >> >a rook," at least in keeping the enemy king off of the same open file. > >> >This gets amplified as the pieces come off the board, making xiangqi > >> >endgames especially unique. > >> > > >> >In xiangqi endgames, we often make waiting moves to force our > opponents > >> >move from good to bad or from safe to danger positions. > >> > > >> >Now that you mention it, it does seem to me that "zugzwang" is used > more > >> >often and at an earlier stage than in chess. > >> > > >> >When applying in shogi, this is to nullify any possible good moves for > >>your > >> >opponent and prepare for a later fight. (In shogi, we must fight - > >>sooner > >> >or later.) > >> > > >> >In shogi you can't reallystop your opponent, just contain them. If you > >> >ever did get to the point where you could use "zugzwang" in shogi, I > >> >imagine the result would already be a foregone conclusion. > >> > > >> >OVERALL > >> > > >> >Maybe, being a xiangqi player, I am fortunate enough to see this early > >>from > >> >a very different perspective. When I started playing shogi with > Japanese > >> >people, I found their attacking and mating skills almost unbelievable. > >> >Then I started practise tsumeshogi and hisshi (brinkmate) problems > >> >intensely and still keep exercises today. In casual games, I often > make > >> >over aggressive moves, put myself into danger and sometimes lose > >>terribly. > >> >That is not to play unseriously or being over-prided, but a helpful > way > >>to > >> >practise manage the unmanageable complications. > >> > > >> >This same process is how shogi turned me from a chess "A" player to an > >> >expert. Shogi opens your eyes to a new way of playing. If you were > >> >defensive as a chess or xiangqi player, you will by force become more > >> >aggressive after taking up Japanese chess. > >> > > >> >I have no idea how well these words provide an alternate insight on > >>shogi > >> >for chess players. But to apply the skills from one game onto another > is > >> >amazing for me. Wish you like. > >> > > >> >It's definitely neat to see what a xiangqi-first player thinks about > >> >shogi. I've only heard chess players tell me their stories in the > past, > >>so > >> >this is an eye-opener for me. Thanks for sharing! > >> > > >> >Cheers, > >> > > >> >Doug Dysart > >> > > >> >P.S. If anyone would like to continue this thread off-list, you can > join > >>me > >> >at http://groups.msn.com/xiangqi or http://groups.msn.com/shogi . > >> > > >> > > >> >Sincerely, > >> >Doug Dysart > >> >Ohio Shogi Club founder${bottom_html_ad} > >> > > >> > >>_________________________________________________________________ > >>Join the millions of Australians using Live Search. Try live.com.au > >> > >> > http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?mode=click&clientID=740&referral=million&URL=http://live.com.au > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Advertisement: 50% off on Xbox 360, PS and Nintendo Wii titles! > http://www.play-asia.com/SOap-23-83-4lab-71-bn-49-en-84-k-40-extended.html > > > > > ------=_Part_25499_23723687.1173317758950 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Thank you very much Darren and Doug.
If I need complementary explanation I contact you directly.
Like Sam Sloan suggested, Unfortunately we do not have
a Korean Shop in Brussel or Antwerp...
 
Alain.

 
On 06/03/07, Darren <sundowner62@hotmail com> wrote:

Hello Alain,

Looks as though  Doug has already answered your question, let me know if you
need any more help.

Darren
(Australia)


>From: Alain Vanhentenryck <alain vanhentenryck@gmail com>
>Reply-To: shogi@topica com
>To: shogi@topica com
>Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi
>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:12:44 -0800
>
>Hello Darren.
>
>I play chess and shogi, solving chess problems and tsume shogi's,
>know the rules of Xaingqui and  I can loose all my games in go,
>but,
>I never found a site on intenet with the OFFICIAL rules of
>Korean Chess in English. I did even not found a board in Belgium.
>
>Is it possible that somebody send me a link to the official korean
>chess rules ?
>
>Thank you very Much.
>
>Alain Vanhentenryck.
>(Belgium)
>
>
>On 06/03/07, Darren < sundowner62@hotmail com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Hi Diceman,
>>
>>Nice article , I prety much agree with what you're saying.
>>Shogi is my favourite game , I also like Xiangqui and Korean Chess, though
>>unfortunatley , I've only played a handfull of games the latter.
>>
>>Check out this site for Makruk :     ThaiGB  it'd also got Shogi and XQ.
>>
>>
>>Regrads,
>>
>>Darren
>>
>>
>> >From: Diceman <shogi@earthlink net>
>> >Reply-To: shogi@topica com
>> >To: shogi@topica com
>> >Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi
>> >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:16:40 -0500 (GMT-05
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >${top_html_ad}
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >As a proponent of shogi, xiangqi, and chess,as well asmyriad chess
>> >variants, this topicbrought forth by Leung-san is one that never ceases
>>to
>> >fascinate me. After playingall three games for nearly two decades, I
>> >still find eachone unique and enjoyable in its own right. While
>>primarily
>> >a chess player, mostly due to geography, I have always found shogi and
>> >xiangqi to be just as playable and challenging. More importantly, they
>> >seem to strengthen my chess abilities while lending an air of freshness
>>not
>> >normally found in other games, chess variants or not.
>> >
>> >For many years I've argued that shogi and xiangqi are not chess
>>variants,
>> >since chess is a "variant" itself. This brings me to the "family" vs.
>> >variant argument: rather than being variants per se, shogi and xiangqi
>> >aremore like chess "cousins." I refer to both games as members of "the
>> >seven chesses"- seven games which were born from the same origin and
>>have
>> >all been widely played in some part of the world. These "chesses"
>>include
>> >shogi, xiangqi, chess, janggi (Korean chess), makruk (Thai chess),
>>shatranj
>> >(Persian chess), and chaturanga (Indian chess). While I must admit
>> >thatthese last two games, shatranj and chaturanga, may deserve to be
>> >excluded from the group of relevant chess family members, as they are no
>> >longer played, I still like to keep them in the group, since they are
>>the
>> >historical link between chess in the West and the four "chesses" of the
>>Far
>> >East. And don't get me started on which game from the Middle East came
>> >first!
>> >
>> >But perhaps out of all seven games, or five if you're just counting ones
>> >played today, the three Leung-san brings up are the most relevant. Not
>>to
>> >discount makruk and janggi, but it seems that by far xiangqi, chess, and
>> >shogi are the most widely played and well-known chess games, and for
>>this
>> >reason I play these three games by far more often than any other game
>> >(including non-chess games like Risk and poker, which I also believe can
>> >help your chess game as well, but maybe not quite as well as shogi and
>> >xiangqi). I have played chess and shogi online, too, and thanks to a
>> >recent email from Leung-san, I plan to play xiangqi online in the future
>> >(if anyone knows of a makruk or janggi server, please do tell), sothere
>> >are fortunately many opportunities to play all three for everyone. The
>> >accessibility of the gamesmakes thisthread one which can continue
>> >indefinitely, since everyone has a chance to try each one out. The
>>thread
>> >could be broadened in the future, too, since there are serversfor chess
>> >variants as well (bughouse and crazyhouse being by far the most exciting
>> >and relevant to shogi, but that's another thread!).
>> >
>> >Now I'd like to make some brief comments on Leung-san's email, and then
>>see
>> >what others' experiences have been like between the three games...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >
>> >There are 64 and 81 squares in chess and shogi boards and 90 grid points
>>in
>> >xiangqi board, such that xiangqi board is the largest whilst chessboard
>>is
>> >the smallest.
>> >
>> >If not for drops, shogi might move unbearably slowly. Chess, on the
>>other
>> >hand, features a relatively packed game from the onset, so that the
>>opening
>> >is more exciting than the other two games; however, this can lead to
>>rapid
>> >trades and a quicker path to theendgame.
>> >
>> >This difference in opening strategy, in my opinion, is due to the
>> >difference in board density whereby xiangqi board is less densely
>>occupied
>> >and the strong pieces are less severely blocked and threatened by other
>> >pieces and become more powerful.
>> >
>> >Xiangqi is probably the most balancedgame of the three. The board is
>> >neither compact nor full of pieces, but the lack of density and open
>>lines
>> >allow the long-range pieces to get things going quickly. My experience
>>has
>> >been that trades happen less quickly in xiangqi than in chess, and
>>because
>> >more pieces are long-ranged than in shogi, the action gets going
>>rapidly.
>> >So in the opening, I find chess positions to be the most dangerous, then
>> >xiangqi positions, and finally shogi ones (although you can pull off
>> >relatively quick wins in all three).
>> >
>> >DRAW
>> >
>> >Due to the reusable pieces feature, shogi games almost never draw
>> >
>> >I don't care much for draws, so chess and xiangqi fall behind shogi in
>>this
>> >category. However, I must admit I do not remember ever drawing a xiangqi
>> >game before! I'm sure this is because I've never played a "serious"
>> >xiangqi game ( i.e. tournament or rated game).
>> >
>> >In the later half of a shogi game, it is easy to say that a move is
>>either
>> >attacking or defending, but less often to say both or neither. Such
>> >distinction is less obvious in xiangqi, and probably in chess as well.
>> >Why? The short distant feature of shogi pieces ( e.g. pawn, gold,
>>silver)
>> >is a reason. Another is our desire to get not less than a half point.
>> >
>> >Great point. I don't see too many moves in shogi which can be described
>>as
>> >both offensive and defensive. Of course, this could be related to the
>>fact
>> >that defending in shogi is usually deemed equivalent to suicide! Not
>>only
>> >do drops make shogi less drawish, but it also makes defending both
>> >unattractive and nearly impossible.
>> >
>> >The half point consideration sometimes makes deciding a move difficult.
>> >And this may be further complicated by the performances of ourselves and
>> >the other players in the other rounds, especially in Swiss and round
>> >robin. But in shogi, we don't care that but simply fight, early or
>>lately.
>> >
>> >I have always taken for granted the time that I have saved by not
>>wasting
>> >time and energy running away from the shogi board to go see if I need to
>> >play for a win or a draw!
>> >
>> >KING'S SAFETY & CASTLING
>> >
>> >Perhaps the most "aesthetically pleasing" aspect of shogi is its
>>free-form
>> >castling. While a xiangqi king isalways a sitting duck and a chess king
>> >only has two options for castling, there are innumerable ways to castle
>>in
>> >shogi. And in shogi the castlesfrequently have 2-4 stages involved,
>> >making defense more flexible and attacking more complex - no one attack
>> >method is always the most effective, since thedefender can adjust their
>> >castle accordingly.
>> >
>> >CHECKMATE & ENDING
>> >
>> >Again, dropping captured pieces makes shogi unique, especially in mating
>> >skills.
>> >
>> >To most xiangqi and chess players, shogi really has no endgame at all!
>> >
>> >And material advantage becomes less important in shogi endgames as
>>speed,
>> >king safety issues, etc. arise.
>> >
>> >It is a testament to how dynamic shogi is that there is no "point scale"
>> >for the pieces.
>> >
>> >On the other hand, many chess endgames have been "solved" with
>>established
>> >winning or drawing procedures.
>> >
>> >Shogi openings and endgames are "less traveled roads" compared to chess.
>> >If you view the game as an art, you might prefer shogi; if you see it as
>>a
>> >science, you might lean more toward chess (I can't say much about
>>xiangqi,
>> >since I've never even played a rated game).
>> >
>> >In xiangqi, the pieces are not as mobile as in chess, especially the
>>king.
>> >
>> >Xiangqi games are made very interesting by the king's ability to "move
>>like
>> >a rook," at least in keeping the enemy king off of the same open file.
>> >This gets amplified as the pieces come off the board, making xiangqi
>> >endgames especially unique.
>> >
>> >In xiangqi endgames, we often make waiting moves to force our opponents
>> >move from good to bad or from safe to danger positions.
>> >
>> >Now that you mention it, it does seem to me that "zugzwang" is used more
>> >often and at an earlier stage than in chess.
>> >
>> >When applying in shogi, this is to nullify any possible good moves for
>>your
>> >opponent and prepare for a later fight. (In shogi, we must fight -
>>sooner
>> >or later.)
>> >
>> >In shogi you can't reallystop your opponent, just contain them. If you
>> >ever did get to the point where you could use "zugzwang" in shogi, I
>> >imagine the result would already be a foregone conclusion.
>> >
>> >OVERALL
>> >
>> >Maybe, being a xiangqi player, I am fortunate enough to see this early
>>from
>> >a very different perspective. When I started playing shogi with Japanese
>> >people, I found their attacking and mating skills almost unbelievable.
>> >Then I started practise tsumeshogi and hisshi (brinkmate) problems
>> >intensely and still keep exercises today. In casual games, I often make
>> >over aggressive moves, put myself into danger and sometimes lose
>>terribly.
>> >That is not to play unseriously or being over-prided, but a helpful way
>>to
>> >practise manage the unmanageable complications.
>> >
>> >This same process is how shogi turned me from a chess "A" player to an
>> >expert. Shogi opens your eyes to a new way of playing. If you were
>> >defensive as a chess or xiangqi player, you will by force become more
>> >aggressive after taking up Japanese chess.
>> >
>> >I have no idea how well these words provide an alternate insight on
>>shogi
>> >for chess players. But to apply the skills from one game onto another is
>> >amazing for me. Wish you like.
>> >
>> >It's definitely neat to see what a xiangqi-first player thinks about
>> >shogi. I've only heard chess players tell me their stories in the past,
>>so
>> >this is an eye-opener for me. Thanks for sharing!
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >
>> >Doug Dysart
>> >
>> >P.S. If anyone would like to continue this thread off-list, you can join
>>me
>> >at http://groups.msn.com/xiangqi or http://groups.msn.com/shogi .
>> >
>> >
>> >Sincerely,
>> >Doug Dysart
>> >Ohio Shogi Club founder${bottom_html_ad}
>> >
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Join the millions of Australians using Live Search. Try live.com.au
>>
>>http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?mode=click&clientID=740&referral=million&URL=http://live.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

_________________________________________________________________
Advertisement: 50% off on Xbox 360, PS and Nintendo Wii titles!




------=_Part_25499_23723687.1173317758950--