From: Alain Vanhentenryck gmail com> Date: 6 mar 2007 Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi ------=_Part_17428_13714876.1173190364058 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello Darren. I play chess and shogi, solving chess problems and tsume shogi's, know the rules of Xaingqui and I can loose all my games in go, but, I never found a site on intenet with the OFFICIAL rules of Korean Chess in English. I did even not found a board in Belgium. Is it possible that somebody send me a link to the official korean chess rules ? Thank you very Much. Alain Vanhentenryck. (Belgium) On 06/03/07, Darren hotmail com> wrote: > > > Hi Diceman, > > Nice article , I prety much agree with what you're saying. > Shogi is my favourite game , I also like Xiangqui and Korean Chess, though > unfortunatley , I've only played a handfull of games the latter. > > Check out this site for Makruk : ThaiGB it'd also got Shogi and XQ. > > > Regrads, > > Darren > > > >From: Diceman earthlink net> > >Reply-To: shogi topica com > >To: shogi topica com > >Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi > >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:16:40 -0500 (GMT-05 > > > > > > > >${top_html_ad} > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >As a proponent of shogi, xiangqi, and chess,as well asmyriad chess > >variants, this topicbrought forth by Leung-san is one that never ceases > to > >fascinate me. After playingall three games for nearly two decades, I > >still find eachone unique and enjoyable in its own right. While primarily > >a chess player, mostly due to geography, I have always found shogi and > >xiangqi to be just as playable and challenging. More importantly, they > >seem to strengthen my chess abilities while lending an air of freshness > not > >normally found in other games, chess variants or not. > > > >For many years I've argued that shogi and xiangqi are not chess variants, > >since chess is a "variant" itself. This brings me to the "family" vs. > >variant argument: rather than being variants per se, shogi and xiangqi > >aremore like chess "cousins." I refer to both games as members of "the > >seven chesses"- seven games which were born from the same origin and have > >all been widely played in some part of the world. These "chesses" include > >shogi, xiangqi, chess, janggi (Korean chess), makruk (Thai chess), > shatranj > >(Persian chess), and chaturanga (Indian chess). While I must admit > >thatthese last two games, shatranj and chaturanga, may deserve to be > >excluded from the group of relevant chess family members, as they are no > >longer played, I still like to keep them in the group, since they are the > >historical link between chess in the West and the four "chesses" of the > Far > >East. And don't get me started on which game from the Middle East came > >first! > > > >But perhaps out of all seven games, or five if you're just counting ones > >played today, the three Leung-san brings up are the most relevant. Not to > >discount makruk and janggi, but it seems that by far xiangqi, chess, and > >shogi are the most widely played and well-known chess games, and for this > >reason I play these three games by far more often than any other game > >(including non-chess games like Risk and poker, which I also believe can > >help your chess game as well, but maybe not quite as well as shogi and > >xiangqi). I have played chess and shogi online, too, and thanks to a > >recent email from Leung-san, I plan to play xiangqi online in the future > >(if anyone knows of a makruk or janggi server, please do tell), sothere > >are fortunately many opportunities to play all three for everyone. The > >accessibility of the gamesmakes thisthread one which can continue > >indefinitely, since everyone has a chance to try each one out. The thread > >could be broadened in the future, too, since there are serversfor chess > >variants as well (bughouse and crazyhouse being by far the most exciting > >and relevant to shogi, but that's another thread!). > > > >Now I'd like to make some brief comments on Leung-san's email, and then > see > >what others' experiences have been like between the three games... > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >There are 64 and 81 squares in chess and shogi boards and 90 grid points > in > >xiangqi board, such that xiangqi board is the largest whilst chessboard > is > >the smallest. > > > >If not for drops, shogi might move unbearably slowly. Chess, on the other > >hand, features a relatively packed game from the onset, so that the > opening > >is more exciting than the other two games; however, this can lead to > rapid > >trades and a quicker path to theendgame. > > > >This difference in opening strategy, in my opinion, is due to the > >difference in board density whereby xiangqi board is less densely > occupied > >and the strong pieces are less severely blocked and threatened by other > >pieces and become more powerful. > > > >Xiangqi is probably the most balancedgame of the three. The board is > >neither compact nor full of pieces, but the lack of density and open > lines > >allow the long-range pieces to get things going quickly. My experience > has > >been that trades happen less quickly in xiangqi than in chess, and > because > >more pieces are long-ranged than in shogi, the action gets going rapidly. > >So in the opening, I find chess positions to be the most dangerous, then > >xiangqi positions, and finally shogi ones (although you can pull off > >relatively quick wins in all three). > > > >DRAW > > > >Due to the reusable pieces feature, shogi games almost never draw > > > >I don't care much for draws, so chess and xiangqi fall behind shogi in > this > >category. However, I must admit I do not remember ever drawing a xiangqi > >game before! I'm sure this is because I've never played a "serious" > >xiangqi game (i.e. tournament or rated game). > > > >In the later half of a shogi game, it is easy to say that a move is > either > >attacking or defending, but less often to say both or neither. Such > >distinction is less obvious in xiangqi, and probably in chess as well. > >Why? The short distant feature of shogi pieces ( e.g. pawn, gold, silver) > >is a reason. Another is our desire to get not less than a half point. > > > >Great point. I don't see too many moves in shogi which can be described > as > >both offensive and defensive. Of course, this could be related to the > fact > >that defending in shogi is usually deemed equivalent to suicide! Not only > >do drops make shogi less drawish, but it also makes defending both > >unattractive and nearly impossible. > > > >The half point consideration sometimes makes deciding a move difficult. > >And this may be further complicated by the performances of ourselves and > >the other players in the other rounds, especially in Swiss and round > >robin. But in shogi, we don't care that but simply fight, early or > lately. > > > >I have always taken for granted the time that I have saved by not wasting > >time and energy running away from the shogi board to go see if I need to > >play for a win or a draw! > > > >KING'S SAFETY & CASTLING > > > >Perhaps the most "aesthetically pleasing" aspect of shogi is its > free-form > >castling. While a xiangqi king isalways a sitting duck and a chess king > >only has two options for castling, there are innumerable ways to castle > in > >shogi. And in shogi the castlesfrequently have 2-4 stages involved, > >making defense more flexible and attacking more complex - no one attack > >method is always the most effective, since thedefender can adjust their > >castle accordingly. > > > >CHECKMATE & ENDING > > > >Again, dropping captured pieces makes shogi unique, especially in mating > >skills. > > > >To most xiangqi and chess players, shogi really has no endgame at all! > > > >And material advantage becomes less important in shogi endgames as speed, > >king safety issues, etc. arise. > > > >It is a testament to how dynamic shogi is that there is no "point scale" > >for the pieces. > > > >On the other hand, many chess endgames have been "solved" with > established > >winning or drawing procedures. > > > >Shogi openings and endgames are "less traveled roads" compared to chess. > >If you view the game as an art, you might prefer shogi; if you see it as > a > >science, you might lean more toward chess (I can't say much about > xiangqi, > >since I've never even played a rated game). > > > >In xiangqi, the pieces are not as mobile as in chess, especially the > king. > > > >Xiangqi games are made very interesting by the king's ability to "move > like > >a rook," at least in keeping the enemy king off of the same open file. > >This gets amplified as the pieces come off the board, making xiangqi > >endgames especially unique. > > > >In xiangqi endgames, we often make waiting moves to force our opponents > >move from good to bad or from safe to danger positions. > > > >Now that you mention it, it does seem to me that "zugzwang" is used more > >often and at an earlier stage than in chess. > > > >When applying in shogi, this is to nullify any possible good moves for > your > >opponent and prepare for a later fight. (In shogi, we must fight - sooner > >or later.) > > > >In shogi you can't reallystop your opponent, just contain them. If you > >ever did get to the point where you could use "zugzwang" in shogi, I > >imagine the result would already be a foregone conclusion. > > > >OVERALL > > > >Maybe, being a xiangqi player, I am fortunate enough to see this early > from > >a very different perspective. When I started playing shogi with Japanese > >people, I found their attacking and mating skills almost unbelievable. > >Then I started practise tsumeshogi and hisshi (brinkmate) problems > >intensely and still keep exercises today. In casual games, I often make > >over aggressive moves, put myself into danger and sometimes lose > terribly. > >That is not to play unseriously or being over-prided, but a helpful way > to > >practise manage the unmanageable complications. > > > >This same process is how shogi turned me from a chess "A" player to an > >expert. Shogi opens your eyes to a new way of playing. If you were > >defensive as a chess or xiangqi player, you will by force become more > >aggressive after taking up Japanese chess. > > > >I have no idea how well these words provide an alternate insight on shogi > >for chess players. But to apply the skills from one game onto another is > >amazing for me. Wish you like. > > > >It's definitely neat to see what a xiangqi-first player thinks about > >shogi. I've only heard chess players tell me their stories in the past, > so > >this is an eye-opener for me. Thanks for sharing! > > > >Cheers, > > > >Doug Dysart > > > >P.S. If anyone would like to continue this thread off-list, you can join > me > >at http://groups.msn.com/xiangqi or http://groups.msn.com/shogi . > > > > > >Sincerely, > >Doug Dysart > >Ohio Shogi Club founder${bottom_html_ad} > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the millions of Australians using Live Search. Try live.com.au > > http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?mode=click&clientID=740&referral=million&URL=http://live.com.au > > > > > ------=_Part_17428_13714876.1173190364058 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Hello Darren.
 
I play chess and shogi, solving chess problems and tsume shogi's,
know the rules of Xaingqui and  I can loose all my games in go,
but,
I never found a site on intenet with the OFFICIAL rules of
Korean Chess in English. I did even not found a board in Belgium.
 
Is it possible that somebody send me a link to the official korean
chess rules ?
 
Thank you very Much.
 
Alain Vanhentenryck.
(Belgium)

 
On 06/03/07, Darren <sundowner62@hotmail com> wrote:

Hi Diceman,

Nice article , I prety much agree with what you're saying.
Shogi is my favourite game , I also like Xiangqui and Korean Chess, though
unfortunatley , I've only played a handfull of games the latter.

Check out this site for Makruk :     ThaiGB  it'd also got Shogi and XQ.


Regrads,

Darren


>From: Diceman < shogi@earthlink net>
>Reply-To: shogi@topica com
>To: shogi@topica com
>Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:16:40 -0500 (GMT-05
>
>
>
>${top_html_ad}
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>As a proponent of shogi, xiangqi, and chess,as well asmyriad chess
>variants, this topicbrought forth by Leung-san is one that never ceases to
>fascinate me. After playingall three games for nearly two decades, I
>still find eachone unique and enjoyable in its own right. While primarily
>a chess player, mostly due to geography, I have always found shogi and
>xiangqi to be just as playable and challenging. More importantly, they
>seem to strengthen my chess abilities while lending an air of freshness not
>normally found in other games, chess variants or not.
>
>For many years I've argued that shogi and xiangqi are not chess variants,
>since chess is a "variant" itself. This brings me to the "family" vs.
>variant argument: rather than being variants per se, shogi and xiangqi
>aremore like chess "cousins." I refer to both games as members of "the
>seven chesses"- seven games which were born from the same origin and have
>all been widely played in some part of the world. These "chesses" include
>shogi, xiangqi, chess, janggi (Korean chess), makruk (Thai chess), shatranj
>(Persian chess), and chaturanga (Indian chess). While I must admit
>thatthese last two games, shatranj and chaturanga, may deserve to be
>excluded from the group of relevant chess family members, as they are no
>longer played, I still like to keep them in the group, since they are the
>historical link between chess in the West and the four "chesses" of the Far
>East. And don't get me started on which game from the Middle East came
>first!
>
>But perhaps out of all seven games, or five if you're just counting ones
>played today, the three Leung-san brings up are the most relevant. Not to
>discount makruk and janggi, but it seems that by far xiangqi, chess, and
>shogi are the most widely played and well-known chess games, and for this
>reason I play these three games by far more often than any other game
>(including non-chess games like Risk and poker, which I also believe can
>help your chess game as well, but maybe not quite as well as shogi and
>xiangqi). I have played chess and shogi online, too, and thanks to a
>recent email from Leung-san, I plan to play xiangqi online in the future
>(if anyone knows of a makruk or janggi server, please do tell), sothere
>are fortunately many opportunities to play all three for everyone. The
>accessibility of the gamesmakes thisthread one which can continue
>indefinitely, since everyone has a chance to try each one out. The thread
>could be broadened in the future, too, since there are serversfor chess
>variants as well (bughouse and crazyhouse being by far the most exciting
>and relevant to shogi, but that's another thread!).
>
>Now I'd like to make some brief comments on Leung-san's email, and then see
>what others' experiences have been like between the three games...
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>There are 64 and 81 squares in chess and shogi boards and 90 grid points in
>xiangqi board, such that xiangqi board is the largest whilst chessboard is
>the smallest.
>
>If not for drops, shogi might move unbearably slowly. Chess, on the other
>hand, features a relatively packed game from the onset, so that the opening
>is more exciting than the other two games; however, this can lead to rapid
>trades and a quicker path to theendgame.
>
>This difference in opening strategy, in my opinion, is due to the
>difference in board density whereby xiangqi board is less densely occupied
>and the strong pieces are less severely blocked and threatened by other
>pieces and become more powerful.
>
>Xiangqi is probably the most balancedgame of the three. The board is
>neither compact nor full of pieces, but the lack of density and open lines
>allow the long-range pieces to get things going quickly. My experience has
>been that trades happen less quickly in xiangqi than in chess, and because
>more pieces are long-ranged than in shogi, the action gets going rapidly.
>So in the opening, I find chess positions to be the most dangerous, then
>xiangqi positions, and finally shogi ones (although you can pull off
>relatively quick wins in all three).
>
>DRAW
>
>Due to the reusable pieces feature, shogi games almost never draw
>
>I don't care much for draws, so chess and xiangqi fall behind shogi in this
>category. However, I must admit I do not remember ever drawing a xiangqi
>game before! I'm sure this is because I've never played a "serious"
>xiangqi game (i.e. tournament or rated game).
>
>In the later half of a shogi game, it is easy to say that a move is either
>attacking or defending, but less often to say both or neither. Such
>distinction is less obvious in xiangqi, and probably in chess as well.
>Why? The short distant feature of shogi pieces ( e.g. pawn, gold, silver)
>is a reason. Another is our desire to get not less than a half point.
>
>Great point. I don't see too many moves in shogi which can be described as
>both offensive and defensive. Of course, this could be related to the fact
>that defending in shogi is usually deemed equivalent to suicide! Not only
>do drops make shogi less drawish, but it also makes defending both
>unattractive and nearly impossible.
>
>The half point consideration sometimes makes deciding a move difficult.
>And this may be further complicated by the performances of ourselves and
>the other players in the other rounds, especially in Swiss and round
>robin. But in shogi, we don't care that but simply fight, early or lately.
>
>I have always taken for granted the time that I have saved by not wasting
>time and energy running away from the shogi board to go see if I need to
>play for a win or a draw!
>
>KING'S SAFETY & CASTLING
>
>Perhaps the most "aesthetically pleasing" aspect of shogi is its free-form
>castling. While a xiangqi king isalways a sitting duck and a chess king
>only has two options for castling, there are innumerable ways to castle in
>shogi. And in shogi the castlesfrequently have 2-4 stages involved,
>making defense more flexible and attacking more complex - no one attack
>method is always the most effective, since thedefender can adjust their
>castle accordingly.
>
>CHECKMATE & ENDING
>
>Again, dropping captured pieces makes shogi unique, especially in mating
>skills.
>
>To most xiangqi and chess players, shogi really has no endgame at all!
>
>And material advantage becomes less important in shogi endgames as speed,
>king safety issues, etc. arise.
>
>It is a testament to how dynamic shogi is that there is no "point scale"
>for the pieces.
>
>On the other hand, many chess endgames have been "solved" with established
>winning or drawing procedures.
>
>Shogi openings and endgames are "less traveled roads" compared to chess.
>If you view the game as an art, you might prefer shogi; if you see it as a
>science, you might lean more toward chess (I can't say much about xiangqi,
>since I've never even played a rated game).
>
>In xiangqi, the pieces are not as mobile as in chess, especially the king.
>
>Xiangqi games are made very interesting by the king's ability to "move like
>a rook," at least in keeping the enemy king off of the same open file.
>This gets amplified as the pieces come off the board, making xiangqi
>endgames especially unique.
>
>In xiangqi endgames, we often make waiting moves to force our opponents
>move from good to bad or from safe to danger positions.
>
>Now that you mention it, it does seem to me that "zugzwang" is used more
>often and at an earlier stage than in chess.
>
>When applying in shogi, this is to nullify any possible good moves for your
>opponent and prepare for a later fight. (In shogi, we must fight - sooner
>or later.)
>
>In shogi you can't reallystop your opponent, just contain them. If you
>ever did get to the point where you could use "zugzwang" in shogi, I
>imagine the result would already be a foregone conclusion.
>
>OVERALL
>
>Maybe, being a xiangqi player, I am fortunate enough to see this early from
>a very different perspective. When I started playing shogi with Japanese
>people, I found their attacking and mating skills almost unbelievable.
>Then I started practise tsumeshogi and hisshi (brinkmate) problems
>intensely and still keep exercises today. In casual games, I often make
>over aggressive moves, put myself into danger and sometimes lose terribly.
>That is not to play unseriously or being over-prided, but a helpful way to
>practise manage the unmanageable complications.
>
>This same process is how shogi turned me from a chess "A" player to an
>expert. Shogi opens your eyes to a new way of playing. If you were
>defensive as a chess or xiangqi player, you will by force become more
>aggressive after taking up Japanese chess.
>
>I have no idea how well these words provide an alternate insight on shogi
>for chess players. But to apply the skills from one game onto another is
>amazing for me. Wish you like.
>
>It's definitely neat to see what a xiangqi-first player thinks about
>shogi. I've only heard chess players tell me their stories in the past, so
>this is an eye-opener for me. Thanks for sharing!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Doug Dysart
>
>P.S. If anyone would like to continue this thread off-list, you can join me
>at http://groups.msn.com/xiangqi or http://groups.msn.com/shogi .
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Doug Dysart
>Ohio Shogi Club founder${bottom_html_ad}
>

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