From: Darren hotmail com> Date: 06 mar 2007 Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi Hi Diceman, Nice article , I prety much agree with what you're saying. Shogi is my favourite game , I also like Xiangqui and Korean Chess, though= =20 unfortunatley , I've only played a handfull of games the latter. Check out this site for Makruk : ThaiGB it'd also got Shogi and XQ. Regrads, Darren >From: Diceman earthlink net> >Reply-To: shogi topica com >To: shogi topica com >Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:16:40 -0500 (GMT-05 > > > >= ${top_html_ad} > > > > > > > > >As a proponent of shogi, xiangqi, and chess,=A0as well as=A0myriad chess= =20 >variants, this topic=A0brought forth by Leung-san is one that never ceases= to=20 >fascinate me.=A0 After playing=A0all three games for nearly two decades, I= =20 >still find each=A0one unique and enjoyable in its own right.=A0 While prim= arily=20 >a chess player, mostly due to geography, I have always found shogi and=20 >xiangqi to be just as playable and challenging.=A0 More importantly, they= =20 >seem to strengthen my chess abilities while lending an air of freshness no= t=20 >normally found in other games, chess variants or not. >=A0 >For many years I've argued that shogi and xiangqi are not chess variants,= =20 >since chess is a "variant" itself.=A0 This brings me to the "family" vs.= =20 >variant argument: rather than being variants per se, shogi and xiangqi=20 >are=A0more like chess "cousins."=A0 I refer to both games as members of "t= he=20 >seven chesses"=A0- seven games which were born from the same origin and ha= ve=20 >all been widely played in some part of the world.=A0 These "chesses" inclu= de=20 >shogi, xiangqi, chess, janggi (Korean chess), makruk (Thai chess), shatran= j=20 >(Persian chess), and chaturanga (Indian chess).=A0 While I must admit=20 >that=A0these last two games, shatranj and chaturanga, may deserve to be= =20 >excluded from the group of relevant chess family members, as they are no= =20 >longer played, I still like to keep them in the group, since they are the= =20 >historical link between chess in the West and the four "chesses" of the Fa= r=20 >East.=A0 And don't get me started on which game from the Middle East came= =20 >first! >=A0 >But perhaps out of all seven games, or five if you're just counting ones= =20 >played today, the three Leung-san brings up are the most relevant.=A0 Not = to=20 >discount makruk and janggi, but it seems that by far xiangqi, chess, and= =20 >shogi are the most widely played and well-known chess games, and for this= =20 >reason I play these three games by far more often than any other game=20 >(including non-chess games like Risk and poker, which I also believe can= =20 >help your chess game as well, but maybe not quite as well as shogi and=20 >xiangqi).=A0 I have played chess and shogi online, too, and thanks to a= =20 >recent email from Leung-san, I plan to play xiangqi online in the future= =20 >(if anyone knows of a makruk or janggi server, please do tell), so=A0there= =20 >are fortunately many opportunities to play all three for everyone.=A0 The= =20 >accessibility of the games=A0makes this=A0thread one which can continue= =20 >indefinitely, since everyone has a chance to try each one out.=A0 The thre= ad=20 >could be broadened in the future, too, since there are servers=A0for chess= =20 >variants as well (bughouse and crazyhouse being by far the most exciting= =20 >and relevant to shogi, but that's another thread!). >=A0 >Now I'd like to make some brief comments on Leung-san's email, and then se= e=20 >what others' experiences have been like between the three games... > > > >-----Original Message----- > >There are 64 and 81 squares in chess and shogi boards and 90 grid points i= n=20 >xiangqi board, such that xiangqi board is the largest whilst chessboard is= =20 >the smallest. > >If not for drops, shogi might move unbearably slowly.=A0 Chess, on the oth= er=20 >hand, features a relatively packed game from the onset, so that the openin= g=20 >is more exciting than the other two games; however, this can lead to rapid= =20 >trades and a quicker path to the=A0endgame.=A0=A0 > >This difference in opening strategy, in my opinion, is due to the=20 >difference in board density whereby xiangqi board is less densely occupied= =20 >and the strong pieces are less severely blocked and threatened by other= =20 >pieces and become more powerful. > >Xiangqi is probably the most balanced=A0game of the three.=A0 The board is= =20 >neither compact nor full of pieces, but the lack of density and open lines= =20 >allow the long-range pieces to get things going quickly.=A0 My experience = has=20 >been that trades happen less quickly in xiangqi than in chess, and because= =20 >more pieces are long-ranged than in shogi, the action gets going rapidly.= =A0=20 >So in the opening, I find chess positions to be the most dangerous, then= =20 >xiangqi positions, and finally shogi ones (although you can pull off=20 >relatively quick wins in all three). > >DRAW > >Due to the reusable pieces feature, shogi games almost never draw > >I don't care much for draws, so chess and xiangqi fall behind shogi in thi= s=20 >category.=A0 However, I must admit I do not remember ever drawing a xiangq= i=20 >game before!=A0 I'm sure this is because I've never played a "serious"=20 >xiangqi game (i.e. tournament or rated game). > >In the later half of a shogi game, it is easy to say that a move is either= =20 >attacking or defending, but less often to say both or neither.=A0 Such=20 >distinction is less obvious in xiangqi, and probably in chess as well.=A0= =20 >Why?=A0 The short distant feature of shogi pieces ( e.g. pawn, gold, silve= r)=20 >is a reason.=A0 Another is our desire to get not less than a half point. > >Great point.=A0 I don't see too many moves in shogi which can be described= as=20 >both offensive and defensive.=A0 Of course, this could be related to the f= act=20 >that defending in shogi is usually deemed equivalent to suicide!=A0 Not on= ly=20 >do drops make shogi less drawish, but it also makes defending both=20 >unattractive and nearly impossible. > >The half point consideration sometimes makes deciding a move difficult.= =A0=20 >And this may be further complicated by the performances of ourselves and= =20 >the other players in the other rounds, especially in Swiss and round=20 >robin.=A0 But in shogi, we don't care that but simply fight, early or late= ly. > >I have always taken for granted the time that I have saved by not wasting= =20 >time and energy running away from the shogi board to go see if I need to= =20 >play for a win or a draw! > >KING'S SAFETY & CASTLING > >Perhaps the most "aesthetically pleasing" aspect of shogi is its free-form= =20 >castling.=A0 While a xiangqi king is=A0always a sitting duck and a chess k= ing=20 >only has two options for castling, there are innumerable ways to castle in= =20 >shogi.=A0 And in shogi the castles=A0frequently have 2-4 stages involved,= =20 >making defense more flexible and attacking more complex - no one attack= =20 >method is always the most effective, since the=A0defender can adjust their= =20 >castle accordingly. > >CHECKMATE & ENDING > >Again, dropping captured pieces makes shogi unique, especially in mating= =20 >skills.=A0 > >To most xiangqi and chess players, shogi really has no endgame at all! > >And material advantage becomes less important in shogi endgames as speed,= =20 >king safety issues, etc. arise.=A0 > >It is a testament to how dynamic shogi is that there is no "point scale"= =20 >for the pieces. > >On the other hand, many chess endgames have been "solved" with established= =20 >winning or drawing procedures.=A0 > >Shogi openings and endgames are "less traveled roads" compared to chess.= =A0=20 >If you view the game as an art, you might prefer shogi; if you see it as a= =20 >science, you might lean more toward chess (I can't say much about xiangqi,= =20 >since I've never even played a rated game). > >In xiangqi, the pieces are not as mobile as in chess, especially the king.= =A0 > >Xiangqi games are made very interesting by the king's ability to "move lik= e=20 >a rook," at least in keeping the enemy king off of the same open file.=A0= =20 >This gets amplified as the pieces come off the board, making xiangqi=20 >endgames especially unique. > >In xiangqi endgames, we often make waiting moves to force our opponents= =20 >move from good to bad or from safe to danger positions.=A0 > >Now that you mention it, it does seem to me that "zugzwang" is used more= =20 >often and at an earlier stage than in chess. > >When applying in shogi, this is to nullify any possible good moves for you= r=20 >opponent and prepare for a later fight.=A0 (In shogi, we must fight - soon= er=20 >or later.) > >In shogi you can't really=A0stop your opponent, just contain them.=A0 If y= ou=20 >ever did get to the point where you could use "zugzwang" in shogi, I=20 >imagine the result would already be a foregone conclusion. > >OVERALL > >Maybe, being a xiangqi player, I am fortunate enough to see this early fro= m=20 >a very different perspective.=A0 When I started playing shogi with Japanes= e=20 >people, I found their attacking and mating skills almost unbelievable.=A0= =20 >Then I started practise tsumeshogi and hisshi (brinkmate) problems=20 >intensely and still keep exercises today.=A0 In casual games, I often make= =20 >over aggressive moves, put myself into danger and sometimes lose terribly.= =A0=20 >That is not to play unseriously or being over-prided, but a helpful way to= =20 >practise manage the unmanageable complications. > >This same process is how shogi turned me from a chess "A" player to an=20 >expert.=A0 Shogi opens your eyes to a new way of playing.=A0 If you were= =20 >defensive as a chess or xiangqi player, you will by force become more=20 >aggressive after taking up Japanese chess. > >I have no idea how well these words provide an alternate insight on shogi= =20 >for chess players.=A0 But to apply the skills from one game onto another i= s=20 >amazing for me.=A0 Wish you like. > >It's definitely neat to see what a xiangqi-first player thinks about=20 >shogi.=A0 I've only heard chess players tell me their stories in the past,= so=20 >this is an eye-opener for me.=A0 Thanks for sharing! > >Cheers, > >Doug Dysart > >P.S. If anyone would like to continue this thread off-list, you can join m= e=20 >at http://groups.msn.com/xiangqi or http://groups.msn.com/shogi . > > >Sincerely, >Doug Dysart >Ohio Shogi Club founder= ${bottom_html_ad} > _________________________________________________________________ Join the millions of Australians using Live Search. Try live.com.au=20 http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?mode=3Dclick&clientID=3D740&r= eferral=3Dmillion&URL=3Dhttp://live.com.au --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= aB5TiY.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------