From: Larry Kaufman comcast net> Date: 1 mar 2007 Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C75C4E.CD427E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Piece values in shogi make for an interesting topic. Of course there is some fluctuation during the game, but the most fundamental rule is this: a piece in hand is always assumed to have full value (except for many pawns, due to the double pawn rule), but a piece on the board is devalued if it is not able to attack the enemy king or defend its own king. Thus, if a general is on your far left while both kings are on your far right, its value is well below the value of generals in the castle. For rooks and bishops, this is not much of an issue as they can quickly swing from one part of the board to another. For pieces in hand or in a castle, the table of values is pretty reliable. That's why Bonanza is so darn strong! Larry Kaufman ----- Original Message ----- From: sean humby To: shogi topica com Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:51 AM Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi It is a testament to how dynamic shogi is that there is no "point scale" for the pieces. This is not an accurate statement. There are several scales given in various books by famous pros. For lance, knight, silver, gold, bishop, and rook (unpromoted), with pawn as 1, Tanigawa gives 5-6-8-9-13-15, while other pros give 3-4-5-6-8-9 (or 10), with other values for promoted pieces. I personally teach 4-5-7-8-11-13, which is a compromise between the above that I think works quite well. What is accurate is that there is much less agreement on the proper scale than there is in chess, and also that it is far more useful in the early stages than later on, when king safety becomes critical. This is an interesting piece of wisdom. I had thought general shogi wisdom was to encourage more fluid thought than assigning static values to pieces. Teaching that a pieces intrinsic value is dependant on a myriad of factors including game stage, king safety, attack potential, and the opponent's possible use for the piece. The values you've listed from various pros seem like they can and should fluctuate. For example I've learned that in the opening a kaku can have a higher value than a hisha for it's ability to weave through the pawn lines. In practice I rarely make that trade but I can certainly see the logic behind dropping a bishop in a sore spot in the enemies defense. Not trying to argue... rather to get some clarity. Is there any more detail regarding these value-systems and how to effectively apply them to any situation? --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.aB5TiY.c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^---------------------------------------------------------------- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C75C4E.CD427E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
     Piece values in shogi make for an interesting topic. Of course there is some fluctuation during the game, but the most fundamental rule is this: a piece in hand is always assumed to have full value (except for many pawns, due to the double pawn rule), but a piece on the board is devalued if it is not able to attack the enemy king or defend its own king. Thus, if a general is on your far left while both kings are on your far right, its value is well below the value of generals in the castle. For rooks and bishops, this is not much of an issue as they can quickly swing from one part of the board to another.
     For pieces in hand or in a castle, the table of values is pretty reliable. That's why Bonanza is so darn strong!
 
     Larry Kaufman 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: A Comparison of Shogi, Chess, Xiangqi

It is a testament to how dynamic shogi is that there is no "point scale" for the pieces.

     This is not an accurate statement. There are several scales given in various books by famous pros. For lance, knight, silver, gold, bishop, and rook (unpromoted), with pawn as 1, Tanigawa gives 5-6-8-9-13-15, while other pros give 3-4-5-6-8-9 (or 10), with other values for promoted pieces. I personally teach 4-5-7-8-11-13, which is a compromise between the above that I think works quite well.

     What is accurate is that there is much less agreement on the proper scale than there is in chess, and also that it is far more useful in the early stages than later on, when king safety becomes critical.
 
This is an interesting piece of wisdom. I had thought general shogi wisdom was to encourage more fluid thought than assigning static values to pieces. Teaching that a pieces intrinsic value is dependant on a myriad of factors including game stage, king safety, attack potential, and the opponent's possible use for the piece. The values you've listed from various pros seem like they can and should fluctuate. For example I've learned that in the opening a kaku can have a higher value than a hisha for it's ability to weave through the pawn lines. In practice I rarely make that trade but I can certainly see the logic behind dropping a bishop in a sore spot in the enemies defense.
 
Not trying to argue... rather to get some clarity. Is there any more detail regarding these value-systems and how to effectively apply them to any situation?
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