From: Reijer Grimbergen yz yamagata-u ac jp> Date: 26 jun 2007 Subject: Re: P. 143 of "Shogi for Beginners" I was hoping that this discussion would reach the right conclusion, but it seems that this is not the case, so I'd like to give my opinion about the rules on this. I am 99% sure the following is correct: 1) There is no such thing as a black king or a white king. This is a mistake in Fairbarn's "Shogi for Beginners" and has been the cause of a lot of embarrassment for Western shogi players in Japan (see below). 2) The king without the dot is for the senior player. The other player takes the king with the extra dot. Seniority is most easily measured by playing strength, but it can also be age or past accomplishments. There have been many cases where a professional game could not start at the proper time because both players took a long time to settle the seniority issue. Mind you, the issue was about allowing the opponent senior status. In Japan, it is considered a great courtesy to allow your opponent senior status. 3) The senior player is also the player who does the furigoma. Therefore, there is never a king swapping issue. The player doing the furigoma is the senior player, so already has the king without the extra dot. Of course the issue of seniority has to be settled before the pieces are being set up, or one wouldn't know which king to take. If the situation is not settled, I have always made a point of taking the king with the extra dot before my opponent takes his king. Most Japanese appreciate this gesture very much, and often they refuse the "senior king" and give it to me. I have encountered this many times, so I also disagree with the assertion that "amateur players don't do this". Why is the mistake in Fairbarn's book leading to embarrassment? I have sometimes seen Western players take the king without the dot from a clearly stronger player when they have the white pieces. When a Japanese would do this, it would be considered a slap in the face. Fortunately, foreign players are usually forgiven their ignorance... Reijer Aquinaswannabe hotmail com wrote: > I see. Just out of curiosity: is there any set of official rules of=20 > shogi that mention such trading of kings after Furigoma? >=20 >=20 > Manabu Terao wrote: >=20 >>As far as my experience concerned, I've never seen such trading >>after Furigoma. >> >>Manabu Terao=20 >> >>Aquinaswannabe hotmail com wrote: >> >> >>>Just one last question to clear this up. I'm sorry if you find my=20 >>>question unnecessarily speculative. >>> >>>If the higher ranked player, who has taken the king general, is awarded= =20 >>>sente through furigoma, do the two players then trade their kings? >>> >>> >>>Manabu Terao wrote: >>> >>>>Hello shogi fans, >>>> >>>>I think it's time JSA to do so in their website. So ask JSA. >>>> >>>>Regards >>>>Manabu Terao >>>> >>>>Aquinaswannabe hotmail com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>I hope this isn't too much to ask for, but can you give me a translati= on=20 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>of the relevant portion of the official rules? >>>>> >>>>>Also, if you give me a link to an English version of the official rule= s=20 >>>>>online, I'd deeply appreciate it, as I've never been able to find an= =20 >>>>>English version of the official rules online (though I've found plenty= =20 >>>>>of rules.) It would be nice to have such a translation, so that many= =20 >>>>>questions may be avoided. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>fabien.osmont teambridge ch wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Yes, I think he's wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>>A few monthes ago we had already a big discussion in the french forum= =20 >>>>>>with=20 >>>>>>"beginners" about this point and we verified the information we had. >>>>>>So I can confirm now that the King is for the "theorically" stronger= =20 >>>>>>player, and the "Jade General" is for his "challenger". >>>>>>It is clearly written in the japanese official rules. >>>>>> >>>>>>Nevertheless, in the western amateur world, I've never seen people= =20 >>>>>>really=20 >>>>>>taking care of this. >>>>>> >>>>>>Fabien >>>>>> >>>>>>Aquinaswannabe hotmail com wrote on 25/06/2007 04:15:36: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>On P. 143 of "Shogi for Beginners," John Fairbairn writes, "It is no= t=20 >>>>>>>important but a convention that many players like ot follow, for a b= it=20 >>>>>>>of extra atmosphere perhaps, is that if a set has two types of king,= =20 >>>>>>>Black takes the one marked [Kanji character for 'jade'] and White ta= ke=20 >>>>>>>marked [kanji character for 'king']." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Is John Fairfairn wrong about this? >>>> >>> >> >>=1B$B;{Hx!!3X=1B(B >>=1B$B>-4}$r@$3&$K9-$a$k2q=1B(B >>http://www.shogi-isps.org >>Email:manabu.terao mx3 ttcn ne jp >>TEL&FAX: 03-3708-5603 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --=20 Reijer Grimbergen Department of Informatics, Yamagata University Jonan 4-3-16, Yonezawa, 992-8510 Japan Tel: +81-(0)238-26-3740 FAX: +81-(0)238-26-3299 http://gamelab.yz.yamagata-u.ac.jp/ --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= aCqKR7.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------