From: Adrian Petrescu cogeco ca> Date: 1 jan 2007 Subject: RE: Shogi record file formats? Hi, David, and thanks for your reply :) I had also previously considered the possibility of extending SGF for Shogi (I say "extending" because as far as I know, although SGF has been defined for several games, Shogi is not one of them). The benefit of this idea is that it is a common framework used in other communities, most notably in Go, so it would be easier and more familiar for me (and future client authors) to implement. The downside is that, since I would essentially be "inventing" this format, no existing Shogi software would be compatible with the default format. (For example, you would not be able to simply take an .sgf shogi file and stick it into a MacShogi database). Of course, this is easily circumvented by allowing users to easily convert between one format and another (it would be quite easy for me to write an sgf2psn script, for example), but this may confuse some users. What I had been hoping for was a unanimous response of "Oh, everybody in the Shogi world uses such-and-such format, all the rest are not important", which I could be certain would be implemented by most existing Shogi software. However, as you have indicated (as well as a few people who contacted me off-list), such a format does not yet exist. In that case, I think the best idea is to follow your suggestion and extend SGF to Shogi, and simply offer users the option of converting it to PSN or KIFU (etc) when they want to use the record with some existing software that uses anther format. Of course, it would be nice if this server takes off, for SGF to become a new de facto standard for the Shogi community as it has for the Go community :) That way all future Shogi software developers would not have any confusion about which format they should implement. So thank you for your response, again, David! Barring no further objections, my likely course of action will be SGF. Thanks :) --Adrian David J Bush wrote: > > The SGF protocol, as you know, actually defines a framework for saving > variations and sub-variations as well as the actual game in a single > text file. SGF requires exclusive use of the symbols ;()[] > Well, maybe the specific notation for a game could use those symbols > also, but it would probably lead to confusion. SGF has been defined for > several other games besides Go. > > For your purposes, I recommend you stay with the SGF framework for > variations, board markup, setup, etc. You might also be interested in > Arno Hollosi's efforts towards defining a protocol for XGF > > http://www.red-bean.com/sgf/xml/ > > Maybe you could define more than one way to implement SGF for Shogi. > Software would have to recognize both formats. Or, since it's your > server, use whatever text notation you prefer. After all, users won't > generally need to look at the text; just click on the forward arrow > to see the next move, right? > > Good luck & happy new year. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian Petrescu" cogeco ca> > To: topica com> > Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 2:08 PM > Subject: Shogi record file formats? > > > | > | Hello, Shogi mailing list! I'm a student and a Go player who is new to > > | the world of shogi, but very interested. > | > | When I first started playing Go several years ago, certainly the most > | important part of my progress was the huge availability of online > | players thanks to servers like KGS, IGS, Dashn, Cyberoro, etc., but > also > | the technical excellence of the clients, which allowed you to store, > | review, and discuss games after they were played (or even months after > > | they were played, thanks to the built-in database). However, after > much > | looking, it has become abundantly clear that currently no such thing > | exists for English-speaking Shogi players. Although a few servers, > like > | Kurnik and Club Shogi, do exist, they cannot even begin to be compared > > | to existing Go servers, either in terms of popularity or > functionality. > | > | So, as a fun side project (I am a Computer Science student after all > :)) > | I have been working on a Shogi server similar in functionality (and > | hopefully once it is finished, similar in status) to KGS. One of the > | most important features to me is to store every played game in a > | database which can then be downloaded for offline viewing or online > | reviewing. In order to do this, I need some common recording format > that > | supports a wide range of annotation features -- full support for > | variation trees, board annotation (marking up square and peices, etc), > > | the ability to "set up" artificial positions, etc. I could devise my > own > | format, but I would prefer to respect the standards that already exist > > | in the Shogi community. In the Go community, there is a clear defacto > | standard: SGF. Although a few other formats exist, and are somewhat > used > | by non-English servers, there is no arguing that SGF is by and far the > > | most popular implementation, and any Go programmer who wants to write > | something knows he is safe implementing SGF. However, from what little > I > | know about the shogi community, no such overwhelming standard exists > for > | shogi kifu. I have found at least three competing formats: .psn, > .kifu, > | and one that Spear uses whose extension I forget at the moment, but > none > | of them seems to have anything resembling a majority mindshare. > | Additionally, I have not been able to find ANY technical documentation > > | that clearly states the standard for any of these. I could easily > learn > | by example, just using MacShogi or Spear to generate records I can > learn > | from, but I would rather have some solid documentation to use, in case > > | my examples are not a COMPLETE implementation of the standard. Also, > | none of the formats I've seen so far supported board annotation, > | although that may only be an issue with the implementation, not the > | format. > | > | If anybody could point me to any documentation, or give a consensus on > > | which format(s) are the most worthy of being implemented in the > server, > | that would speed up development and would be greatly appreciated :) > | > | Thanks in advance! > | --Adrian Petrescu > | > | NOTE: I apologize in advance if you have recieved this message twice. > I > | tried it once through the regular email adddress and even after > several > | hours it did not show up, so I'm trying again through the web > interface. > | Hopefully it works this time. > | > | > | --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.aBsjvI.c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------