As a proponent of shogi, xiangqi, and chess, as well as myri= ad chess variants, this topic brought forth by Leung-san is one that n= ever ceases to fascinate me. After playing all three games for n= early two decades, I still find each one unique and enjoyable in its o= wn right. While primarily a chess player, mostly due to geography, I = have always found shogi and xiangqi to be just as playable and challenging.= More importantly, they seem to strengthen my chess abilities while l= ending an air of freshness not normally found in other games, chess variant= s or not.

For many years I've argued that shogi and xiangqi are not chess varian= ts, since chess is a "variant" itself. This brings me to the "family"= vs. variant argument: rather than being variants per se, shogi and xiangqi= are more like chess "cousins." I refer to both games as members= of "the seven chesses" - seven games which were born from the same or= igin and have all been widely played in some part of the world. These= "chesses" include shogi, xiangqi, chess, janggi (Korean chess), makruk (Th= ai chess), shatranj (Persian chess), and chaturanga (Indian chess). W= hile I must admit that these last two games, shatranj and chaturanga, = may deserve to be excluded from the group of relevant chess family members,= as they are no longer played, I still like to keep them in the group, sinc= e they are the historical link between chess in the West and the four "ches= ses" of the Far East. And don't get me started on which game from the= Middle East came first!

But perhaps out of all seven games, or five if you're just counting on= es played today, the three Leung-san brings up are the most relevant. = Not to discount makruk and janggi, but it seems that by far xiangqi, chess= , and shogi are the most widely played and well-known chess games, and for = this reason I play these three games by far more often than any other game = (including non-chess games like Risk and poker, which I also believe can he= lp your chess game as well, but maybe not quite as well as shogi and xiangq= i). I have played chess and shogi online, too, and thanks to a recent= email from Leung-san, I plan to play xiangqi online in the future (if anyo= ne knows of a makruk or janggi server, please do tell), so there are f= ortunately many opportunities to play all three for everyone. The acc= essibility of the games makes this thread one which can continue = indefinitely, since everyone has a chance to try each one out. The th= read could be broadened in the future, too, since there are servers fo= r chess variants as well (bughouse and crazyhouse being by far the most exc= iting and relevant to shogi, but that's another thread!).

Now I'd like to make some brief comments on Leung-san's email, and the= n see what others' experiences have been like between the three games...

-----Original Message-----

There are 64 and 81 squares in chess and shogi boards= and 90 grid points in xiangqi board, such that xiangqi board is the larges= t whilst chessboard is the smallest.

If not for drops, shogi might move unbearably slowly. Chess, on th= e other hand, features a relatively packed game from the onset, so that the= opening is more exciting than the other two games; however, this can lead = to rapid trades and a quicker path to the endgame.

This difference in opening strategy, in my opinion, i= s due to the difference in board density whereby xiangqi board is less dens= ely occupied and the strong pieces are less severely blocked and threatened= by other pieces and become more powerful.

Xiangqi is probably the most balanced game of the three. The = board is neither compact nor full of pieces, but the lack of density and op= en lines allow the long-range pieces to get things going quickly. My = experience has been that trades happen less quickly in xiangqi than in ches= s, and because more pieces are long-ranged than in shogi, the action gets g= oing rapidly. So in the opening, I find chess positions to be the mos= t dangerous, then xiangqi positions, and finally shogi ones (although you c= an pull off relatively quick wins in all three).

DRAW

Due to the reusable pieces feature, shogi games almos= t never draw

I don't care much for draws, so chess and xiangqi fall behind shogi in t= his category. However, I must admit I do not remember ever drawing a = xiangqi game before! I'm sure this is because I've never played a "se= rious" xiangqi game (i.e. tournament or rated game).

In the later half of a shogi game, it is easy to say = that a move is either attacking or defending, but less often to say both or= neither. Such distinction is less obvious in xiangqi, and probably i= n chess as well. Why? The short distant feature of shogi pieces= ( e.g. pawn, gold, silver) is a reason. Another is our desire to get= not less than a half point.

Great point. I don't see too many moves in shogi which can be desc= ribed as both offensive and defensive. Of course, this could be relat= ed to the fact that defending in shogi is usually deemed equivalent to suic= ide! Not only do drops make shogi less drawish, but it also makes def= ending both unattractive and nearly impossible.

The half point consideration sometimes makes deciding= a move difficult. And this may be further complicated by the perform= ances of ourselves and the other players in the other rounds, especially in= Swiss and round robin. But in shogi, we don't care that but simply f= ight, early or lately.

I have always taken for granted the time that I have saved by not wastin= g time and energy running away from the shogi board to go see if I need to = play for a win or a draw!

KING'S SAFETY & CASTLING

Perhaps the most "aesthetically pleasing" aspect of shogi is its free-fo= rm castling. While a xiangqi king is always a sitting duck and a= chess king only has two options for castling, there are innumerable ways t= o castle in shogi. And in shogi the castles frequently have 2-4 = stages involved, making defense more flexible and attacking more complex - = no one attack method is always the most effective, since the defender = can adjust their castle accordingly.

CHECKMATE & ENDING

Again, dropping captured pieces makes shogi unique, e= specially in mating skills.

To most xiangqi and chess players, shogi really has no endgame at all!
And material advantage becomes less important in shog= i endgames as speed, king safety issues, etc. arise.

It is a testament to how dynamic shogi is that there is no "point scale"= for the pieces.

On the other hand, many chess endgames have been "sol= ved" with established winning or drawing procedures.

Shogi openings and endgames are "less traveled roads" compared to chess.= If you view the game as an art, you might prefer shogi; if you see i= t as a science, you might lean more toward chess (I can't say much about xi= angqi, since I've never even played a rated game).

In xiangqi, the pieces are not as mobile as in chess,= especially the king.

Xiangqi games are made very interesting by the king's ability to "move l= ike a rook," at least in keeping the enemy king off of the same open file.&= nbsp; This gets amplified as the pieces come off the board, making xiangqi = endgames especially unique.

In xiangqi endgames, we often make waiting moves to f= orce our opponents move from good to bad or from safe to danger positions.&= nbsp;

Now that you mention it, it does seem to me that "zugzwang" is used more= often and at an earlier stage than in chess.

When applying in shogi, this is to nullify any possib= le good moves for your opponent and prepare for a later fight. (In sh= ogi, we must fight - sooner or later.)

In shogi you can't really stop your opponent, just= contain them. If you ever did get to the point where you could use "= zugzwang" in shogi, I imagine the result would already be a foregone conclu= sion.

OVERALL

Maybe, being a xiangqi player, I am fortunate enough = to see this early from a very different perspective. When I started p= laying shogi with Japanese people, I found their attacking and mating skill= s almost unbelievable. Then I started practise tsumeshogi and hisshi = (brinkmate) problems intensely and still keep exercises today. In cas= ual games, I often make over aggressive moves, put myself into danger and s= ometimes lose terribly. That is not to play unseriously or being over= -prided, but a helpful way to practise manage the unmanageable complication= s.

This same process is how shogi turned me from a chess "A" player to an e= xpert. Shogi opens your eyes to a new way of playing. If you we= re defensive as a chess or xiangqi player, you will by force become more ag= gressive after taking up Japanese chess.

I have no idea how well these words provide an altern= ate insight on shogi for chess players. But to apply the skills from = one game onto another is amazing for me. Wish you like.
It's definitely neat to see what a xiangqi= -first player thinks about shogi. I've only heard chess players tell = me their stories in the past, so this is an eye-opener for me. Thanks= for sharing!

Cheers,

Doug Dysart

P.S. If anyone would like to continue this= thread off-list, you can join me at http://groups.msn.com/xiangqi or http://groups.msn.com/shogi .


Sincerely,
Doug Dysart
Ohio Shogi Club founder

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