From: Aquinaswannabe <at> hotmail <dot> com
Date: 13 may 2006
Subject: RE: Definition of 'Higher ranked player

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Actually, one other thing.  In professional games, amateur games, and=20
casual games, is furigoma used to decide who gets Sente?

Manabu Terao wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> In my case as an amateur player, except the case that I'm clearly both=
=20
> higher ranked and older than the opponent, I try to use Gyokusho at=20
> first when I have a chance to play with an unknown player. If my=20
> opponent=20
> rejects my using Gyokusho, then we may ask our grades and ages each=20
> other=20
> to have an agreement which should use Gyokusho. Since the criteria of=20
> dan=20
> grades are differentiate by clubs/Dojos, the player who turns out to be=
=20
> older often comes to use Osho.
>=20
> When I play shogi games in a shogi club nearby, higher ranked(higher=20
> dan)player uses Osho. If both players are in the same dan level, then
> the player who is considered older player uses Osho in principle.
>=20
> Manabu Terao=20
>=20
> Aquinaswannabe <at> hotmail <dot> com wrote:
>=20
> > One more thing.  You already talked about professional games.  In an=
=20
> > amateur game, does the player with a lower shogi skill ranking and=20
> > social status use the Jade General?
> >=20
> > Manabu Terao wrote:
> > >=20
> > > Hello
> > >=20
> > > Then my recommendation is for an older player to use Osho.
> > >=20
> > > Manabu Terao
> > >=20
> > > Aquinaswannabe <at> hotmail <dot> com wrote:
> > >=20
> > > > What about outside of the professional world?  I only play Shogi=
=20
> > > > casually (although I'm also trying to seriously learn the tactics a=
nd=20
> > > > strategies).  I don't have any dan or kyu except yahoo rating.  If =
I'm=20
> > > > just playing causally with friends who also do not have any dan or =
kyu=20
> > > > (though some of them have yahoo rating), and I want to practice Sho=
gi=20
> > > > etiquette, how should we decide who uses the Jade General?
> > > >=20
> > > > Manabu Terao wrote:
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >=20
> > > > > The answer is both.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > When I talked about "rank" in the context of 'higher ranked playe=
r' in=20
> > > > > the
> > > > > professional shogi world, it meant four ranks such as whether a t=
itle=20
> > > > > holder=20
> > > > > or not, ranking in Juni-sen, Dan grade of a player and ranking in=
=20
> > > > > Ryuoh-sen
> > > > >=20
> > > > > I think whether title holder or not is a ranking of mixture of sh=
ogi=20
> > > > > skill level
> > > > > and social status to some extent. And I think Dan grade of a play=
er is a=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > ranking
> > > > > of mixture of shogi skill level, social status and seniority. On =
the=20
> > > > > other hand,
> > > > > rankings in Juni-sen and Ryuoh-sen reflect on the performance in =
these
> > > > > tournaments in the past, especially last year.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Manabu Terao
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Aquinaswannabe <at> hotmail <dot> com wrote:
> > > > >=20
> > > > > > Thanks, but actually my question is a lot simpler than that =
=3D)
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > What I really meant to ask is this: when you talked about "rank=
," such=20
> > > > > > as when you wrote, "higher ranked player uses Osho," were you r=
eferring=20
> > > > > > to a ranking that reflects one's shogi skill level, or were you=
 talking=20
> > > > > > about one's ranking in something else such as social status and=
=20
> > > > > > seniority in work and school?
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Manabu Terao wrote:
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > Before answering the question, I revised the subject as above=
 since this
> > > > > > > will be archived at http://www.shogi.net/shogi-l/Archive/ and=
=20
> > > > > > > http://lists.topica.com/lists/shogi/read , and I thought the =
revised=20
> > > > > > > title=20
> > > > > > > will represent the contents of the message better for people =
who will=20
> > > > > > > use
> > > > > > > those archives later.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > It's a good and tough question to answer. I think there is no=
=20
> > > > > > > publication
> > > > > > > for NSR to clearly define which player is a higher ranked pla=
yer.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > As far as I think of, there are four ranking systems in the p=
rofessional=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > shogi world such as the relation between a title holder and a=
 challenger=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > in a title match, ranking in Juni-sen, Dan grade, and Ryuoh-s=
en ranking.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > I believe that a title holder is always considered a higher r=
anked=20
> > > > > > > player
> > > > > > > against a challenger in a title match. And I guess the rankin=
g in=20
> > > > > > > Juni-sen
> > > > > > > is applied in most other cases than title matches and Ryuoh-s=
en. But I'm=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > sure.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > The shogi scoresheet which NSR have used does fields for neit=
her which=20
> > > > > > > player is a higher ranked player nor which player uses Osho/G=
yokusho. So=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > their recordkeepers have not recorded which player used Gyoku=
sho at all.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > Manabu Terao
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > Aquinaswannabe <at> hotmail <dot> com wrote:
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > Sorry again for addressing you in a public forum.
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > My question is this: when you wrote, "higher ranked player =
uses Osho,"=20
> > > > > > > > by "rank" you're referring to the Dan (=1B$BCJ=1B(B) in Sho=
gi skill grading=20
> > > > > > > > of a player, correct?
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > Manabu Terao wrote:
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > No, he doesn't. It does not have anything to do with whet=
her Sente or=20
> > > > > > > > > Gote. It is a custom that a higher ranked player uses Osh=
o.=20
> > > > > > > > > However, an older player sometimes uses Osho even if he i=
s lower ranked=20
> > > > > > > > > when a younger player shows his respect for seniority.
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > Manabu Terao
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > Does the player who has plays first (the player who is =
Sente) always=20
> > > > > > > > > > uses the Jade General (=1B$B!&%N%"=1B(BN, Gyokusho), wh=
ile the player who=20
> > > > > > > > > > plays=20
> > > > > > > > > > second (the player who is Gote) always uses the King Ge=
neral=20
> > > > > > > > > > (=1B$B!"=1B(B?$B%"N,=20
> > > > > > > > > > Osho)?=20
>=20


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