From: Manabu Terao <manabu.terao <at> mx3 <dot> ttcn <dot> ne <dot> jp>
Date: 13 may 2006
Subject: Re: Definition of 'Higher ranked player

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Hello,

In my case as an amateur player, except the case that I'm clearly both=20
higher ranked and older than the opponent, I try to use Gyokusho at=20
first when I have a chance to play with an unknown player. If my opponent=
=20
rejects my using Gyokusho, then we may ask our grades and ages each other=
=20
to have an agreement which should use Gyokusho. Since the criteria of dan=
=20
grades are differentiate by clubs/Dojos, the player who turns out to be=20
older often comes to use Osho.

When I play shogi games in a shogi club nearby, higher ranked(higher=20
dan)player uses Osho. If both players are in the same dan level, then
the player who is considered older player uses Osho in principle.

Manabu Terao=20

Aquinaswannabe <at> hotmail <dot> com wrote:

> One more thing.  You already talked about professional games.  In an=20
> amateur game, does the player with a lower shogi skill ranking and=20
> social status use the Jade General?
>=20
> Manabu Terao wrote:
> >=20
> > Hello
> >=20
> > Then my recommendation is for an older player to use Osho.
> >=20
> > Manabu Terao
> >=20
> > Aquinaswannabe <at> hotmail <dot> com wrote:
> >=20
> > > What about outside of the professional world?  I only play Shogi=20
> > > casually (although I'm also trying to seriously learn the tactics and=
=20
> > > strategies).  I don't have any dan or kyu except yahoo rating.  If I'=
m=20
> > > just playing causally with friends who also do not have any dan or ky=
u=20
> > > (though some of them have yahoo rating), and I want to practice Shogi=
=20
> > > etiquette, how should we decide who uses the Jade General?
> > >=20
> > > Manabu Terao wrote:
> > > >=20
> > > > Hello,
> > > >=20
> > > > The answer is both.
> > > >=20
> > > > When I talked about "rank" in the context of 'higher ranked player'=
 in=20
> > > > the
> > > > professional shogi world, it meant four ranks such as whether a tit=
le=20
> > > > holder=20
> > > > or not, ranking in Juni-sen, Dan grade of a player and ranking in=
=20
> > > > Ryuoh-sen
> > > >=20
> > > > I think whether title holder or not is a ranking of mixture of shog=
i=20
> > > > skill level
> > > > and social status to some extent. And I think Dan grade of a player=
 is a=20
> > > >=20
> > > > ranking
> > > > of mixture of shogi skill level, social status and seniority. On th=
e=20
> > > > other hand,
> > > > rankings in Juni-sen and Ryuoh-sen reflect on the performance in th=
ese
> > > > tournaments in the past, especially last year.
> > > >=20
> > > > Manabu Terao
> > > >=20
> > > > Aquinaswannabe <at> hotmail <dot> com wrote:
> > > >=20
> > > > > Thanks, but actually my question is a lot simpler than that =3D)
> > > > >=20
> > > > > What I really meant to ask is this: when you talked about "rank,"=
 such=20
> > > > > as when you wrote, "higher ranked player uses Osho," were you ref=
erring=20
> > > > > to a ranking that reflects one's shogi skill level, or were you t=
alking=20
> > > > > about one's ranking in something else such as social status and=
=20
> > > > > seniority in work and school?
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Manabu Terao wrote:
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Before answering the question, I revised the subject as above s=
ince this
> > > > > > will be archived at http://www.shogi.net/shogi-l/Archive/ and=
=20
> > > > > > http://lists.topica.com/lists/shogi/read , and I thought the re=
vised=20
> > > > > > title=20
> > > > > > will represent the contents of the message better for people wh=
o will=20
> > > > > > use
> > > > > > those archives later.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > It's a good and tough question to answer. I think there is no=
=20
> > > > > > publication
> > > > > > for NSR to clearly define which player is a higher ranked playe=
r.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > As far as I think of, there are four ranking systems in the pro=
fessional=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > shogi world such as the relation between a title holder and a c=
hallenger=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > in a title match, ranking in Juni-sen, Dan grade, and Ryuoh-sen=
 ranking.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > I believe that a title holder is always considered a higher ran=
ked=20
> > > > > > player
> > > > > > against a challenger in a title match. And I guess the ranking =
in=20
> > > > > > Juni-sen
> > > > > > is applied in most other cases than title matches and Ryuoh-sen=
. But I'm=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > sure.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > The shogi scoresheet which NSR have used does fields for neithe=
r which=20
> > > > > > player is a higher ranked player nor which player uses Osho/Gyo=
kusho. So=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > their recordkeepers have not recorded which player used Gyokush=
o at all.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Manabu Terao
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Aquinaswannabe <at> hotmail <dot> com wrote:
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > Sorry again for addressing you in a public forum.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > My question is this: when you wrote, "higher ranked player us=
es Osho,"=20
> > > > > > > by "rank" you're referring to the Dan (=1B$BCJ=1B(B) in Shogi=
 skill grading=20
> > > > > > > of a player, correct?
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > Manabu Terao wrote:
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > No, he doesn't. It does not have anything to do with whethe=
r Sente or=20
> > > > > > > > Gote. It is a custom that a higher ranked player uses Osho.=
=20
> > > > > > > > However, an older player sometimes uses Osho even if he is =
lower ranked=20
> > > > > > > > when a younger player shows his respect for seniority.
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > Manabu Terao
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > Does the player who has plays first (the player who is Se=
nte) always=20
> > > > > > > > > uses the Jade General (=1B$B!&%N%"=1B(BN, Gyokusho), whil=
e the player who=20
> > > > > > > > > plays=20
> > > > > > > > > second (the player who is Gote) always uses the King Gene=
ral=20
> > > > > > > > > (=1B$B!"=1B(B?$B%"N,=20
> > > > > > > > > Osho)?=20


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