From: bogin yahoo co jp> Date: 8 nov 2005 Subject: Re: Congratulation on Segawa-san's victory Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Need a new Cell Phone? A BlackBerry 7250 could be yours free! Find=20 out how! http://click.topica.com/= caaeatua2i6YsbnuqMaa/Amazing phone ------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard, Thanks for the reply. Actually, you said what I wanted to say, but only better. By "elite", I meant a top of the line pro. An A or B class player. Sorry, if that created any extra confusion. Kubo 8-dan was the only player above C2(Takano 5-dan) that Segawa 4-dan played.=20=20 I agree that all of Segawa 4-dan's opponents were very strong and was not trying to slam any of them. Also, I was not trying to implied that the result was rigged in anyway and thus tarnish Segawa 4-dan excellent accomplishment. Let's just say I think he got a "favourable" draw.=20=20 Setting him up against all A or B class players would have probably been counter productive. Not only would it have been extremely hard for Segawa 4-dan to win 3 games, it would have also been kind of an insulting to the A= and B class players. Doing so would have been a no win situation for the Shogi Remei. Imagine the embarrassment if Segawa 4-dan did beat 3 or 4 of them. Well never know of course, but maybe some of those pro's would have refused to participate in such a thing. Before this "test" began, most people I talk to figured he would have good chance to beat Kanki 6-dan, and Ms. Nakai. Kubo 8-dan would probably be a loss and Sato 3-dan could go either way. I think the last 2 opponent's Takano 5-dan and Nagaoka 4-dan were replacements for pro's that had dropped= out. According to the Shogi Renmei HP, they were chosen because they were students of Chairman Yonenaga (Nagaoka 4-dan) and Vice Chairman Nakahara (Takano 5-dan) and were sort of "pinch hitters". So, most of the people I know figured that he would make it with a game to spare.=20 I have seen all 3 of Ms. Nakai's previous wins against pro's in the NHK tournament so I know how strong is. It was true that she was winning against Segawa 4-dan.=20=20 Sato 3-dan is also very strong. He even had the chance to enter via the free class last year and become a pro 4-dan. But, he decided to turn that down and become a 4-dan by winning the 3-dan league and thus enter the C2. And, of course Kanki 6-dan is still a pro so it is not like he is a shogi beginner. Even though he seems to concentrate more on being an entertainer than shogi-pro, he still can play. Segawa 4-dan did beat Kubo 8-dan before so the revenge angle was probably a= big reason for the rematch. Kubo 8-dan probably wanted this opportunity. But, Segawa 4-dan also had the better position this time in his game against Kubo 8-dan before making an error and losing a gold for nothing near the end of the game. Regardless of which pro's were chosen to play Segawa 4-dan, the pressure for them to win must have been overwhelming. Almost all of them mentioned the pressure in their post game comments. Ms. Nakai said that it seemed like it was she, not Mr. Segawa, that was being tested.=20 =20 Segawa 4-dan's challenge was sponsored by NEC. Segawa 4-dan worked (still works?) for a NEC subsidiary. I am not sure if this is relevant but I do believe it worked out good for both NEC and the Shogi Renmei. Regardless, of how it happened, Segawa 4-dan is now a pro. It will be very interesting to see how he does. If he gets very good results then maybe it will make it easier for others to get the same chance that he did. But, if he does not do all that well then maybe it will be more than 61 years before so meting like this happens again. Everyone will be watching him, so= now it seems that the pressure is really on. Bill Gaudry --- Richard Sams parkcity ne jp> =1B$B$+$i$N%a%C%;!<%8!'=1B(B > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > MAKE NEW FRIENDS, MEET POTENTIAL BUSINESS PARTNERS, FIND THAT SPECIAL > SOMEONE! > IT'S EASY, IT'S FUN! AND BEST OF ALL, IT'S TOTALLY FREE! > http://click.topica.com/caaeatFa2i6Ysa7fLJaa/Friendsand.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > On the whole, I agree with Bill Gaudry's comments about Segawa.=20 > However, I don't think it's quite true to say that his opponents were >=20 > selected to give him the best possible chance. Since the main purpose >=20 > of the event was get publicity for shogi, I think they were chosen=20 > mainly with this in mind. This accounts for the inclusion of Kanki=20 > 5-dan, a larger-than-life comedian in the shogi world, and a lady=20 > professional player, Ms. Nakai. Bill point out that only Kubo 8-dan > was=20 > the only "elite player" (though I'm not sure what this means) among=20 > Segawa's opponents, but it should be pointed out that Segawa had=20 > already beaten Kubo in a TV game. The "revenge" motif was also no > doubt=20 > good PR. Even Segawa's first opponent, a 3-dan Shoreikai member, is=20 > considered at least as strong as many 4-dan professionals, according > to=20 > one professional player. Ms. Nakai should also not be underestimated. >=20 > She recorded the first-ever defeat of a male professional more than > 10=20 > years ago, and has since won several times against male pros, at > least=20 > twice in televised games. In her game with Segawa, she outplayed him=20 > and missed a relatively simple chance to win in the endgame. Segawa=20 > acknowledged after the game that he had had a completely lost > position.=20 > I don't think it would have been fair, for example, to give Segawa > six=20 > opponents selected from the A and B classes, because even a leading=20 > Shoreikai player would find it almost impossible to win three games=20 > against such opposition. And the deployment of such "elite" > opposition=20 > would also entail a considerable amount of risk for the Shogi Renmei! >=20 > It's always easy to be wise after the event, but until yesterday, > many=20 > people in the shogi world still doubted whether Segawa would win > either=20 > of his last two games, particularly considering the mounting pressure >=20 > and publicity. In these circumstances, I think he did brilliantly,=20 > saving the best for last with a superb game against Takano 5-dan. >=20 > Richard Sams >=20 >=20 > On 2005/11/07, at 17:06, bogin wrote: >=20 > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Is your computer freezing up or slowing down? > > Repair corrupt files and harmful errors - protect your PC > > Take a 2-minute PC health check-up at no charge! > > http://click.topica.com/caaeatra2i6YsbqdEI9a/PC PowerScan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I think Mr. Segawa's accomplishment was outstanding. However, I > would=20 > > not > > count on this kind of thing becoming a regular occurrence. > > > > Mr. Segawa was not your typical shogi amateur. He is a former 3-dan > in=20 > > the > > Shogi Shoreikai so he was only one step away from becoming a=20 > > professional. > > But, he reached age 26 before being promoted to 4-dan so he had to=20 > > leave > > the Shoreikai. Perhaps if the age limit was 30 instead of 26 he > might=20 > > of > > made pro anyway. > > > > His record against professionals (in even tournament games!) has > been > > outstanding. Since 2000, he has had a 17-7 record against pro's in=20 > > official > > games. He has also been the Amateur Meijin (1999), Amateur Osho > (2002)=20 > > and > > was also the losing finalist Amateur Osho (2003). I also believe > that=20 > > he > > has done very well in other individual and team tournaments and > plays > > (played?) for a strong company team. He is number seven on the > Amateur > > Shogi Association's rating list with a rating of 2407 and according > to > > their website he has a winning percentage of 75% in official games=20 > > (most of > > which I am assuming were played again very strong players). I have > also > > read that Mr. Segawa was a frequent participant of a few pro player > > research/study groups and often socialised with pro's as well. So, > he=20 > > seems > > to have been basically considered a sort of "unofficial pro" or one > of=20 > > the > > gang by quite a few pros. > > > > So, I think it was because of all this and also probably because > the > > popularity of shogi has been on the decline recent in Japan that > Mr.=20 > > Segawa > > was given this chance. This kind of thing got shogi in the news. > But,=20 > > I do > > not think it will become a regular occurrence. According to what I > have > > read the last time something like this happened was in 1944, so > that=20 > > shows > > how rare this type of thing is. > > Besides, if you look at his 6 opponents, it seems that it was set > up to > > give him the best possible chance to pass. They were all very > strong > > players but, other than Kubo 8-dan, none of them were considered an >=20 > > elite > > player. I know Ms. Nakai is an elite women's pro and I have heard > that=20 > > the > > farthest she got in the men's Shoreikai was 3-kyu. Mr. Segawa won > all=20 > > the > > games he was pretty much expected to win. Maybe it would have been=20 > > better > > if he played against 6 4-dans. Maybe the average real strength of > his > > opponents would have been much higher. > > > > I have read that there were a few professionals unhappy about the=20 > > decision > > to give Mr. Segawa this opportunity. I can also image that it made > a=20 > > few > > Shoreikai 3-Dans also a little unhappy as well. They were probably > > overjoyed when Mr. Segawa lost his first game to Mr. Sato (a > Shoreikai > > 3-dan). There are 30 players in the 3-dan league and they play 18=20 > > official > > games. Right now, 9 of them are 24 or over so they will soon be > facing=20 > > a > > similar situation that Mr. Segawa faced. There are only 4 players=20 > > promoted > > to pro every year through the 3-dan league and they usually have to > win > > more than 12 or 13 games to do so. I am sure that some of them > would=20 > > not > > mind having the chance to become a pro (even a free class pro) by=20 > > winning 3 > > out of 6 games. > > > > While it is true that the gap between pro's and amateur is getting=20 > > smaller > > (thanks to the Internet) I still think that it is still there. It > may=20 > > not > > be as big as it was 30 years ago but it is still there. > > Not many amateur's in Japan could match Mr. Segawa's performance. > Even > > though I know there are very strong players outside of Japan, I am > not=20 > > sure > > if they are strong enough. Even among the strongest players in the=20 > > world > > that attended the recent International Shogi Forum, how many of > them=20 > > could > > have won 3 games (or maybe even 1 game) like Mr. Segawa did? I > think=20 > > the > > Shogi Renmei knows this. Maybe this is one reason the best Japanese > > amateurs do not seem participate in these international forums.=20 > > Besides, I > > have a feeling that before the Shogi Renmei ever allows a foreigner > to > > become pro this way, it will have to become a regular option for > very > > strong Japanese amateurs first. > > > > Not only in Shogi, but in other types of Japanese things, the > accepted=20 > > path > > is to start at the bottom and move up. Very rarely do you enter at > the=20 > > top. > > Everyone from Sumo wrestlers, Igo players, calligraphers, Kabuki > > performers, Karate and Judo, Sake makers, Ikebana practitioners, to > > entertainers and even stand-up comedians usually go through some > kind=20 > > of > > "Shoreikai System". For better or worse, that is the Japanese way. > > > > I am not a Igo fan so I may have some of this wrong. I know that > the=20 > > Igo > > world is much more international than the Shogi world. The > strongest > > players are not necessarily even Japanese. So, this may not be a > very=20 > > good > > example. > > > > Anyway, there is an American from California named Michael Redmond > who=20 > > is a > > Professional Igo player here in Japan. He is a 9-dan so he is > pretty > > strong. Anyway, I think is only 1 of 3 Western professional players >=20 > > (not a > > teaching professional) that is active here in Japan. I've read that > he > > started playing Igo when he was 10 like it so much that he came to=20 > > Japan on > > his own when he was 14 (he's 42 now) and it took him 4 years before > he > > passed the pro-exam. He found a teacher went through the Igo=20 > > "Shoreikai" > > (Insei) and became a pro just as all amateurs would. > > > > For many Japanese shogi players, shogi is indeed more than a > "game".=20 > > I do > > not feel that it is going to be set up so that someone you can > become=20 > > pro > > via long-distance. I may be wrong but that's just how I see it. I > think > > that the only way we are going to see a foreigner as a shogi pro is > for > > them to go through the system like Mr. Redmond did. It is going to > be > > someone who comes to Japan at a relatively young age and puts their >=20 > > time > > learning not only shogi but also the culture and the language. > > > > Maybe someday we will have a foreigner pro. Maybe the first person > will > > even be a woman (since the standards are not as rigorous). But if=20 > > there is > > then I am almost positive that person will have to get through the > > Shoreikai first. Or at least win almost every major amateur > tournament > > there is in Japan before they will even be considered. > > > > Bill Gaudry > > > > > > > >> This is very good news! It means that in principle the path > is > >> open for > >> any player in the world to become a pro, even if he cannot go thru > >> the > >> Shoreikai due to age or to living outside Japan. If I were thirty > >> years > >> younger it would surely motivate me to try to become a pro. > >> > >> Larry Kaufman > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Manabu Terao" mx3 ttcn ne jp> > >> To: topica com> > >> Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 4:42 AM > >> Subject: Congratulation on Segawa-san's victory > >> > >> > >> Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> New Apple=1B$B!&=1B(BiPod=1B$B!&=1B(Bnano. As Thin as a No. 2 Pencil. = Stores up to 3 > >> Days of Songs! Get it Here FREE*! > >> http://click.topica.com/caaeatBa2i6Ysa7fLLna/Superb Rewards > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Hello Shogi fans, > >> > >> Just quickly I would like to inform you that Segawa-san won the > 5th > >> examination > >> game with Takano 5dan with 104moves. The score of the examination > is > >> now > >> 3-2. > >> He has been entitled to become a professional player without > playing > >> the 6th > >> game. > >> > >> Regards > >> Manabu Terao > >> > >> Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> FREE DVR > >> And up to 3 additional standard receivers! > >> Call 1-800- 901 - 5080 Today > >> http://click.topica.com/caaeas1a2i6Ysa7fLLnf/DirectSatTV > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Is your computer freezing up or slowing down? > >> Repair corrupt files and harmful errors - protect your PC > >> Take a 2-minute PC health check-up at no charge! > >> http://click.topica.com/caaeatra2i6Ysa7fLJaf/PC PowerScan > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > -------------------------------------- > > Yahoo! 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