From: Richard Sams parkcity ne jp> Date: 7 nov 2005 Subject: Re: Congratulation on Segawa-san's victory Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- MAKE NEW FRIENDS, MEET POTENTIAL BUSINESS PARTNERS, FIND THAT SPECIAL SOMEO= NE! IT'S EASY, IT'S FUN! AND BEST OF ALL, IT'S TOTALLY FREE! http://click.topica.com/= caaeatFa2i6YsbnuqMaa/Friendsand.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- On the whole, I agree with Bill Gaudry's comments about Segawa.=20 However, I don't think it's quite true to say that his opponents were=20 selected to give him the best possible chance. Since the main purpose=20 of the event was get publicity for shogi, I think they were chosen=20 mainly with this in mind. This accounts for the inclusion of Kanki=20 5-dan, a larger-than-life comedian in the shogi world, and a lady=20 professional player, Ms. Nakai. Bill point out that only Kubo 8-dan was=20 the only "elite player" (though I'm not sure what this means) among=20 Segawa's opponents, but it should be pointed out that Segawa had=20 already beaten Kubo in a TV game. The "revenge" motif was also no doubt=20 good PR. Even Segawa's first opponent, a 3-dan Shoreikai member, is=20 considered at least as strong as many 4-dan professionals, according to=20 one professional player. Ms. Nakai should also not be underestimated.=20 She recorded the first-ever defeat of a male professional more than 10=20 years ago, and has since won several times against male pros, at least=20 twice in televised games. In her game with Segawa, she outplayed him=20 and missed a relatively simple chance to win in the endgame. Segawa=20 acknowledged after the game that he had had a completely lost position.=20 I don't think it would have been fair, for example, to give Segawa six=20 opponents selected from the A and B classes, because even a leading=20 Shoreikai player would find it almost impossible to win three games=20 against such opposition. And the deployment of such "elite" opposition=20 would also entail a considerable amount of risk for the Shogi Renmei!=20 It's always easy to be wise after the event, but until yesterday, many=20 people in the shogi world still doubted whether Segawa would win either=20 of his last two games, particularly considering the mounting pressure=20 and publicity. In these circumstances, I think he did brilliantly,=20 saving the best for last with a superb game against Takano 5-dan. Richard Sams On 2005/11/07, at 17:06, bogin wrote: > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Is your computer freezing up or slowing down? > Repair corrupt files and harmful errors - protect your PC > Take a 2-minute PC health check-up at no charge! > http://click.topica.com/caaeatra2i6YsbqdEI9a/PC PowerScan > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think Mr. Segawa's accomplishment was outstanding. However, I would=20 > not > count on this kind of thing becoming a regular occurrence. > > Mr. Segawa was not your typical shogi amateur. He is a former 3-dan in= =20 > the > Shogi Shoreikai so he was only one step away from becoming a=20 > professional. > But, he reached age 26 before being promoted to 4-dan so he had to=20 > leave > the Shoreikai. Perhaps if the age limit was 30 instead of 26 he might=20 > of > made pro anyway. > > His record against professionals (in even tournament games!) has been > outstanding. Since 2000, he has had a 17-7 record against pro's in=20 > official > games. He has also been the Amateur Meijin (1999), Amateur Osho (2002)= =20 > and > was also the losing finalist Amateur Osho (2003). I also believe that=20 > he > has done very well in other individual and team tournaments and plays > (played?) for a strong company team. He is number seven on the Amateur > Shogi Association's rating list with a rating of 2407 and according to > their website he has a winning percentage of 75% in official games=20 > (most of > which I am assuming were played again very strong players). I have also > read that Mr. Segawa was a frequent participant of a few pro player > research/study groups and often socialised with pro's as well. So, he=20 > seems > to have been basically considered a sort of "unofficial pro" or one of= =20 > the > gang by quite a few pros. > > So, I think it was because of all this and also probably because the > popularity of shogi has been on the decline recent in Japan that Mr.=20 > Segawa > was given this chance. This kind of thing got shogi in the news. But,=20 > I do > not think it will become a regular occurrence. According to what I have > read the last time something like this happened was in 1944, so that=20 > shows > how rare this type of thing is. > Besides, if you look at his 6 opponents, it seems that it was set up to > give him the best possible chance to pass. They were all very strong > players but, other than Kubo 8-dan, none of them were considered an=20 > elite > player. I know Ms. Nakai is an elite women's pro and I have heard that= =20 > the > farthest she got in the men's Shoreikai was 3-kyu. Mr. Segawa won all=20 > the > games he was pretty much expected to win. Maybe it would have been=20 > better > if he played against 6 4-dans. Maybe the average real strength of his > opponents would have been much higher. > > I have read that there were a few professionals unhappy about the=20 > decision > to give Mr. Segawa this opportunity. I can also image that it made a=20 > few > Shoreikai 3-Dans also a little unhappy as well. They were probably > overjoyed when Mr. Segawa lost his first game to Mr. Sato (a Shoreikai > 3-dan). There are 30 players in the 3-dan league and they play 18=20 > official > games. Right now, 9 of them are 24 or over so they will soon be facing= =20 > a > similar situation that Mr. Segawa faced. There are only 4 players=20 > promoted > to pro every year through the 3-dan league and they usually have to win > more than 12 or 13 games to do so. I am sure that some of them would=20 > not > mind having the chance to become a pro (even a free class pro) by=20 > winning 3 > out of 6 games. > > While it is true that the gap between pro's and amateur is getting=20 > smaller > (thanks to the Internet) I still think that it is still there. It may=20 > not > be as big as it was 30 years ago but it is still there. > Not many amateur's in Japan could match Mr. Segawa's performance. Even > though I know there are very strong players outside of Japan, I am not= =20 > sure > if they are strong enough. Even among the strongest players in the=20 > world > that attended the recent International Shogi Forum, how many of them=20 > could > have won 3 games (or maybe even 1 game) like Mr. Segawa did? I think=20 > the > Shogi Renmei knows this. Maybe this is one reason the best Japanese > amateurs do not seem participate in these international forums.=20 > Besides, I > have a feeling that before the Shogi Renmei ever allows a foreigner to > become pro this way, it will have to become a regular option for very > strong Japanese amateurs first. > > Not only in Shogi, but in other types of Japanese things, the accepted= =20 > path > is to start at the bottom and move up. Very rarely do you enter at the= =20 > top. > Everyone from Sumo wrestlers, Igo players, calligraphers, Kabuki > performers, Karate and Judo, Sake makers, Ikebana practitioners, to > entertainers and even stand-up comedians usually go through some kind=20 > of > "Shoreikai System". For better or worse, that is the Japanese way. > > I am not a Igo fan so I may have some of this wrong. I know that the=20 > Igo > world is much more international than the Shogi world. The strongest > players are not necessarily even Japanese. So, this may not be a very=20 > good > example. > > Anyway, there is an American from California named Michael Redmond who= =20 > is a > Professional Igo player here in Japan. He is a 9-dan so he is pretty > strong. Anyway, I think is only 1 of 3 Western professional players=20 > (not a > teaching professional) that is active here in Japan. I've read that he > started playing Igo when he was 10 like it so much that he came to=20 > Japan on > his own when he was 14 (he's 42 now) and it took him 4 years before he > passed the pro-exam. He found a teacher went through the Igo=20 > "Shoreikai" > (Insei) and became a pro just as all amateurs would. > > For many Japanese shogi players, shogi is indeed more than a "game".=20 > I do > not feel that it is going to be set up so that someone you can become=20 > pro > via long-distance. I may be wrong but that's just how I see it. I think > that the only way we are going to see a foreigner as a shogi pro is for > them to go through the system like Mr. Redmond did. It is going to be > someone who comes to Japan at a relatively young age and puts their=20 > time > learning not only shogi but also the culture and the language. > > Maybe someday we will have a foreigner pro. Maybe the first person will > even be a woman (since the standards are not as rigorous). But if=20 > there is > then I am almost positive that person will have to get through the > Shoreikai first. Or at least win almost every major amateur tournament > there is in Japan before they will even be considered. > > Bill Gaudry > > > >> This is very good news! It means that in principle the path is >> open for >> any player in the world to become a pro, even if he cannot go thru >> the >> Shoreikai due to age or to living outside Japan. If I were thirty >> years >> younger it would surely motivate me to try to become a pro. >> >> Larry Kaufman >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Manabu Terao" mx3 ttcn ne jp> >> To: topica com> >> Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 4:42 AM >> Subject: Congratulation on Segawa-san's victory >> >> >> Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> New Apple=1B$B!&=1B(BiPod=1B$B!&=1B(Bnano. As Thin as a No. 2 Pencil. St= ores up to 3 >> Days of Songs! Get it Here FREE*! >> http://click.topica.com/caaeatBa2i6Ysa7fLLna/Superb Rewards >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Hello Shogi fans, >> >> Just quickly I would like to inform you that Segawa-san won the 5th >> examination >> game with Takano 5dan with 104moves. The score of the examination is >> now >> 3-2. >> He has been entitled to become a professional player without playing >> the 6th >> game. >> >> Regards >> Manabu Terao >> >> Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> FREE DVR >> And up to 3 additional standard receivers! >> Call 1-800- 901 - 5080 Today >> http://click.topica.com/caaeas1a2i6Ysa7fLLnf/DirectSatTV >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Is your computer freezing up or slowing down? >> Repair corrupt files and harmful errors - protect your PC >> Take a 2-minute PC health check-up at no charge! >> http://click.topica.com/caaeatra2i6Ysa7fLJaf/PC PowerScan >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -------------------------------------- > Yahoo! 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