From: bogin yahoo co jp> Date: 7 nov 2005 Subject: Re: Congratulation on Segawa-san's victory Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Is your computer freezing up or slowing down? Repair corrupt files and harmful errors - protect your PC Take a 2-minute PC health check-up at no charge! http://click.topica.com/= caaeatra2i6YsbnuqMaa/PC PowerScan ------------------------------------------------------------------- I think Mr. Segawa's accomplishment was outstanding. However, I would not count on this kind of thing becoming a regular occurrence. Mr. Segawa was not your typical shogi amateur. He is a former 3-dan in the Shogi Shoreikai so he was only one step away from becoming a professional. But, he reached age 26 before being promoted to 4-dan so he had to leave the Shoreikai. Perhaps if the age limit was 30 instead of 26 he might of made pro anyway.=20 His record against professionals (in even tournament games!) has been outstanding. Since 2000, he has had a 17-7 record against pro's in official= games. He has also been the Amateur Meijin (1999), Amateur Osho (2002) and was also the losing finalist Amateur Osho (2003). I also believe that he has done very well in other individual and team tournaments and plays (played?) for a strong company team. He is number seven on the Amateur Shogi Association's rating list with a rating of 2407 and according to their website he has a winning percentage of 75% in official games (most of= which I am assuming were played again very strong players). I have also read that Mr. Segawa was a frequent participant of a few pro player research/study groups and often socialised with pro's as well. So, he seems= to have been basically considered a sort of "unofficial pro" or one of the gang by quite a few pros.=20 So, I think it was because of all this and also probably because the popularity of shogi has been on the decline recent in Japan that Mr. Segawa= was given this chance. This kind of thing got shogi in the news. But, I do not think it will become a regular occurrence. According to what I have read the last time something like this happened was in 1944, so that shows how rare this type of thing is. Besides, if you look at his 6 opponents, it seems that it was set up to give him the best possible chance to pass. They were all very strong players but, other than Kubo 8-dan, none of them were considered an elite player. I know Ms. Nakai is an elite women's pro and I have heard that the farthest she got in the men's Shoreikai was 3-kyu. Mr. Segawa won all the games he was pretty much expected to win. Maybe it would have been better if he played against 6 4-dans. Maybe the average real strength of his opponents would have been much higher.=20 I have read that there were a few professionals unhappy about the decision to give Mr. Segawa this opportunity. I can also image that it made a few Shoreikai 3-Dans also a little unhappy as well. They were probably overjoyed when Mr. Segawa lost his first game to Mr. Sato (a Shoreikai 3-dan). There are 30 players in the 3-dan league and they play 18 official games. Right now, 9 of them are 24 or over so they will soon be facing a similar situation that Mr. Segawa faced. There are only 4 players promoted to pro every year through the 3-dan league and they usually have to win more than 12 or 13 games to do so. I am sure that some of them would not mind having the chance to become a pro (even a free class pro) by winning 3= out of 6 games. While it is true that the gap between pro's and amateur is getting smaller (thanks to the Internet) I still think that it is still there. It may not be as big as it was 30 years ago but it is still there.=20 Not many amateur's in Japan could match Mr. Segawa's performance. Even though I know there are very strong players outside of Japan, I am not sure= if they are strong enough. Even among the strongest players in the world that attended the recent International Shogi Forum, how many of them could have won 3 games (or maybe even 1 game) like Mr. Segawa did? I think the Shogi Renmei knows this. Maybe this is one reason the best Japanese amateurs do not seem participate in these international forums. Besides, I have a feeling that before the Shogi Renmei ever allows a foreigner to become pro this way, it will have to become a regular option for very strong Japanese amateurs first.=20 Not only in Shogi, but in other types of Japanese things, the accepted path= is to start at the bottom and move up. Very rarely do you enter at the top.= Everyone from Sumo wrestlers, Igo players, calligraphers, Kabuki performers, Karate and Judo, Sake makers, Ikebana practitioners, to entertainers and even stand-up comedians usually go through some kind of "Shoreikai System". For better or worse, that is the Japanese way. I am not a Igo fan so I may have some of this wrong. I know that the Igo world is much more international than the Shogi world. The strongest players are not necessarily even Japanese. So, this may not be a very good example.=20 Anyway, there is an American from California named Michael Redmond who is a= Professional Igo player here in Japan. He is a 9-dan so he is pretty strong. Anyway, I think is only 1 of 3 Western professional players (not a teaching professional) that is active here in Japan. I've read that he started playing Igo when he was 10 like it so much that he came to Japan on= his own when he was 14 (he's 42 now) and it took him 4 years before he passed the pro-exam. He found a teacher went through the Igo "Shoreikai" (Insei) and became a pro just as all amateurs would. For many Japanese shogi players, shogi is indeed more than a "game". I do not feel that it is going to be set up so that someone you can become pro via long-distance. I may be wrong but that's just how I see it. I think that the only way we are going to see a foreigner as a shogi pro is for them to go through the system like Mr. Redmond did. It is going to be someone who comes to Japan at a relatively young age and puts their time learning not only shogi but also the culture and the language. Maybe someday we will have a foreigner pro. Maybe the first person will even be a woman (since the standards are not as rigorous). But if there is then I am almost positive that person will have to get through the Shoreikai first. Or at least win almost every major amateur tournament there is in Japan before they will even be considered. Bill Gaudry=20 =20 > This is very good news! It means that in principle the path is > open for=20 > any player in the world to become a pro, even if he cannot go thru > the=20 > Shoreikai due to age or to living outside Japan. If I were thirty > years=20 > younger it would surely motivate me to try to become a pro. >=20 > Larry Kaufman >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Manabu Terao" mx3 ttcn ne jp> > To: topica com> > Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 4:42 AM > Subject: Congratulation on Segawa-san's victory >=20 >=20 > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > New Apple=1B$B!&=1B(BiPod=1B$B!&=1B(Bnano. As Thin as a No. 2 Pencil. Sto= res up to 3 > Days of Songs! Get it Here FREE*! > http://click.topica.com/caaeatBa2i6Ysa7fLLna/Superb Rewards > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Hello Shogi fans, >=20 > Just quickly I would like to inform you that Segawa-san won the 5th=20 > examination > game with Takano 5dan with 104moves. The score of the examination is > now=20 > 3-2. > He has been entitled to become a professional player without playing > the 6th > game. >=20 > Regards > Manabu Terao >=20 > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > FREE DVR > And up to 3 additional standard receivers! > Call 1-800- 901 - 5080 Today > http://click.topica.com/caaeas1a2i6Ysa7fLLnf/DirectSatTV > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Is your computer freezing up or slowing down? > Repair corrupt files and harmful errors - protect your PC > Take a 2-minute PC health check-up at no charge! > http://click.topica.com/caaeatra2i6Ysa7fLJaf/PC PowerScan > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 -------------------------------------- Yahoo! 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