From: Eric macshogi com> Date: 18 sep 2004 Subject: Re: Shogi SOS-based pairing at the EC/WOSC Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Is Gay Marriage a Civil Rights Issue? Click here and win. http://click.topica.com/= caacDvRa2i6YsbnuqMaa/PermissionData ------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello, Thanks to Pieter and Jochen for the details about the pairings. I would like to reply to some parts of Jochen's mail : > The system is not strange. Most tournaments in Germany used this=20 > pairing system in the past. All major Go-tournaments in Europe also=20 > used this method (and the programme). > Also: This pairing system has nothing to do with MacMahon. The=20 > programme supports the MacMahon system and this methode can also be=20 > used in the MacMahon system, but it is not restricted to it! Later in this mail, you give the name of this program "Gerlachs=20 MacMahon program" that indicates that it was first designed for=20 MacMahon system tournaments. And major Go European tournaments are=20 mostly organized with MacMahon points for each grade. I can understand=20 that this system can work correctly with MacMahon points (+3 for 4 Dan,=20 +2 for 3 Dan, ... -1 for 1 kyu and so on) with a good number of players=20 for each grade. But the WOSC has not the same characterics at all :-( With an inside=20 knock-out tournament, no MacMahon point and a relatively small number=20 of players at each grade, this system shows its limits. > 1. No two players will be paired twice. > 2. The global number of players paired up or down has to be minimized. > 3. The choice of players that are paired up or down. Nothing about a rule preventing a player from being "punished" several=20 times in the tournament as in the swiss system. > Pairing within a point (or MacMahon) group > The players within one group (with the same number of points or=20 > macmahon points) are paired like this: the first player (according to=20 > his SOS) against the last; the second against the second last. The=20 > players that had a strong tournament so far (shown in their high sos)=20 > will get a relatively weaker opponent. Here is the main bad side effect : when you take part in the knock-out=20 tournament and when you lose the semi final and the final for the third=20 place of the ESC, you have "only" 3 points out of five. You are=20 somewhere in the middle of the tournament but you have a high SOS=20 number of points (probably the highest SOS points of the 3 out of 5=20 players). With the above rule, not only you just lost the semi final and the 3rd=20 place final of the ESC but you will be punished again with a "weak"=20 pairing. This happened for Gert twice in rounds 6 and 7 :-(( And this=20 ruined his final place in the tournament table after his good start in=20 the tournament. A possibility to remove this side effect could be to choose the=20 cumulative for the first tie-break. But if FESA changes again the WOSC=20 format, this point doesn't need to be discussed anymore. > It is fair to give that player that had the strongest opponents so far= =20 > a relatively weak opponent. Sorry, but I don't agree with this point. As by "relatively weak=20 opponent", your program chooses a player somewhere in the weakest=20 players of the group. The main consequence of this is that after two=20 hard fought games in round 4 and 5, Gert played against two much weaker=20 players in rounds 6 and 7. The difference of strength between his=20 opponents is really too wide, this system prevents the "punished"=20 player from playing interesting games. How can you still be interested=20 in the tournament with such a pairing ? You simply lose your=20 concentration for the next games. I am afraid that seeing this, the=20 next loser of the 3rd place final, will expect bad pairings in the next=20 rounds. His interest in the tournament can simply vanish ;-( > FESA decided in this years FESA-meeting that we will change this. But=20 > it was not yet decided what we will do exactly (use separate groups,=20 > use MacMahon groups). Is it possible to get the details of the FESA meeting ? Before choosing the future format of the tournament, remember that=20 previously, we had a Dan group and a Kyu group and most of middle rated=20 players complained about separate groups as they prevent them to=20 compete for the ESC title. This complain mostly came from 1, 2 and 3=20 kyu players. > I hope that everyone now understands that the pairing of the WOSC was=20 > indeed fair and that it followed some reasonable considerations. Your explanations lead me to the conclusion that the "Gerlachs MacMahon=20 program" suits to real MacMahon tournaments, such as in Go tournaments.=20 But anyone can understand that it has important drawbacks for the=20 actual WOSC format. Best shogi wishes, =C9ric ---------------- Study Shogi and read shogi reportages at http://eric.macshogi.com/ The first Mac OS X Shogi Database Program at http://www.macshogi.com/ Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you live vicariously through Reality TV? 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