From: Larry Kaufman <lkaufman <at> comcast <dot> net>
Date: 27 aug 2004
Subject: Re: Elo ratings

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C48C2F.9DB06070
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Save up to 80% on Inkjet & Toner Supplies. 100% Satisfaction=20
Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. www.inksoutlet.com
http://click.topica.com/=
caacAsfa2i6YsbnuqMaa/Inksoutlet
-------------------------------------------------------------------

      It seems that initial ratings were assigned based on class, and then =
ratings were updated based on the simple rating formula used by SC24 and a =
long time ago by the US Chess Federation (16 per win +/- 4% of the differen=
ce). I can't tell whether the games are rated one by one as played, or if a=
ll games in a three month period are rated as if they were one big tourname=
nt. Can you tell if this is stated? Also, the question of who is doing this=
 remains.
     Anyway, it's interesting that after the "big three", the top rated pla=
yer is Kimura, who is not a title holder or A class player but who is consi=
dered very strong as a consistently high scorer. Next is young Watanabe, su=
rprisingly ahead of many recent title holders.

     Larry
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: bpricem=20
  To: shogi <at> topica <dot> com=20
  Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 11:18 AM
  Subject: Re: Elo ratings


Hi Larry,If you click on this link it explains how these calculations were =
done. It is in Japanese but you can follow the math. http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp=
/t-higu/shogi/ex-rating.htmlBobLarry Kaufman wrote:     Wow, this is really=
 interesting! The ratings look quite plausible (relative to one another) at=
 first glance, with Habu and Moriuchi at the top followed closely by Taniga=
wa. The spread between these three (on average) and the median Pro is just =
about 400 points, so if this site is accurate the value of "several" in my =
earlier post is "4".=20
          Can you (or anyone else who reads Japanese) look at the site and =
tell us who is calculating the ratings and anything else that might be post=
ed about how the calculations are done?

         Larry Kaufman
      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: bpricem=20
      To: shogi <at> topica <dot> com=20
      Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 9:36 AM
      Subject: Re: Elo ratings


Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Save up to 80% on Inkjet & Toner Supplies. 100% Satisfaction=20
Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. www.inksoutlet.com
http://click.topica.com/caacAsfa2i6Ysa7fLLnb/Inksoutlet
-------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here is a Japanese pro rating site. I don't know the accuracy of it.

      http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/t-higu/shogi/pro-rating.html

      Bob

      Pieter Stouten wrote:

Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Save up to 80% on Inkjet & Toner Supplies. 100% Satisfaction=20
Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. www.inksoutlet.com
http://click.topica.com/caacAsfa2i6Ysa7fLJda/Inksoutlet
-------------------------------------------------------------------

--- Larry Kaufman <lkaufman <at> comcast <dot> net> wrote:

  We have an ELO rating system for shogi outside Japan, called the
"Pan-Atlantic" rating system. 5 Dan is centered at 2340. My actual
Pan-Atlantic shogi rating is 2354, ...

    For a description of the rating system and the most recent Pan-Atlantic=

Elo list, please refer to the following pages:

http://www.shogi.net/fesa/ratings.html
http://www.shogi.net/fesa/rating.intro
http://www.shogi.net/fesa/ratinglists/latest.txt

Enjoy!

Pieter

Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Stories from the Civil Rights Movement. Extraordinary stories,=20
ordinary people. Share your memories today!
http://click.topica.com/caacvgla2i6Ysa7fLJdf/AARP
-------------------------------------------------------------------





  Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Sponsor a child today through Children International.=20=20
Give a desperately poor child hope for a brighter future.
For only $18 a month you can make a difference!
http://click.topica.com/caacvgoa2i6Ysa7fLLng/ChildrenInternational
-------------------------------------------------------------------
    Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Need cash fast? Get a $500 CASH ADVANCE overnight! Let=20
YourCashCentral get you the cash you need.
http://click.topica.com/caacxyca2i6Ysa7fLJdg/MyOnlinePayday
-------------------------------------------------------------------
  Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
RE-GROW YOUR HAIR STARTING NOW.....Click here for more info!
http://click.topica.com/caacxyda2i6Ysa7fLLng/Medical Hair Restoration
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy Stocks and Index Funds for just $4 No Account or=20
Investment Minimums and No Inactivity Fees Automatically=20
invest weekly or monthly and build your future.
http://click.topica.com/=
caacvgga2i6YsbnuqMaf/Sharebuilder
-------------------------------------------------------------------

--^----------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent to: =
shogi-l <at> shogi <dot> net

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.=
bnuqMa.=
c2hvZ2kt
Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe <at> topica <dot> com

For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit:
http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER
--^----------------------------------------------------------------

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C48C2F.9DB06070
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3Dtext/html;charset=3DISO-8859-1>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1458" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>=
<PRE>Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Save up to 80% on Inkjet & Toner Supplies. 100% Satisfaction=20
Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. www.inksoutlet.com
<A HREF=3D"http://click.topica.com/=
caacAsfa2i6YsbnuqMab/Inksoutlet">http://click.topica.com/=
caacAsfa2i6YsbnuqMab/Inksoutlet</A>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
</PRE>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <STRONG>It =
seems=20
that initial ratings were assigned based on class, and then ratings were up=
dated=20
based on the simple rating formula used by SC24 and a long time ago by the =
US=20
Chess Federation (16 per win +/- 4% of the difference). I can't tell whethe=
r the=20
games are rated one by one as played, or if all games in a three month peri=
od=20
are rated as if they were one big tournament. Can you tell if this is state=
d?=20
Also, the question of who is doing this remains.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Anyway, i=
t's=20
interesting that after the "big three", the top rated player is Kimura, who=
 is=20
not a title holder or A class player but who is considered very strong as a=
=20
consistently high scorer. Next is young Watanabe, surprisingly ahead of man=
y=20
recent title holders.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Larry</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LE=
FT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>Fro=
m:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dbpricem <at> gaea <dot> ocn <dot> ne <dot> jp=20
  href=3D"mailto:bpricem <at> gaea <dot> ocn <dot> ne <dot> jp">bpricem</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dshogi <at> topica <dot> com=
=20
  href=3D"mailto:shogi <at> topica <dot> com">shogi@topica <dot> com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 27, 2004 11:1=
8=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Elo ratings</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><PRE>Hi Larry,<BR><BR>If you click on this link it explain=
s how these calculations were done. It is in Japanese but you can follow th=
e math. <BR><BR><A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext href=3D"http://www.hi-ho.n=
e.jp/t-higu/shogi/ex-rating.html">http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/t-higu/shogi/ex-ra=
ting.html</A><BR><BR>Bob<BR><BR>Larry Kaufman wrote:<BR></PRE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmid1128571770-1463792638-1093618283 <at> boing <dot> topica <dot> com=
=20
  type=3D"cite">
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Wow, =
this is=20
    really interesting! The ratings look quite plausible (relative to one=
=20
    another) at first glance, with Habu and Moriuchi at the top followed cl=
osely=20
    by Tanigawa. The spread between these three (on average) and the median=
 Pro=20
    is just about 400 points, so if this site is accurate the value of "sev=
eral"=20
    in my earlier post is "4". </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;<FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <STRONG=
>Can you=20
    (or anyone else who reads Japanese) look at the site and tell us who is=
=20
    calculating the ratings and anything else that might be posted about ho=
w the=20
    calculations are done?</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Larry=
=20
    Kaufman</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDE=
R-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: no=
ne">-----=20
      Original Message ----- </DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-=
stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-=
background-inline-policy: initial; moz-background-origin: initial"><B>From:=
</B>=20
      <A title=3Dbpricem <at> gaea <dot> ocn <dot> ne <dot> jp=20
      href=3D"mailto:bpricem <at> gaea <dot> ocn <dot> ne <dot> jp">bpricem</A> </DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: no=
ne"><B>To:</B>=20
      <A title=3Dshogi <at> topica <dot> com=20
      href=3D"mailto:shogi <at> topica <dot> com">shogi@topica <dot> com</A> </DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: no=
ne"><B>Sent:</B>=20
      Friday, August 27, 2004 9:36 AM</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: no=
ne"><B>Subject:</B>=20
      Re: Elo ratings</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV><PRE>Your free subscription is supported by today's sp=
onsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Save up to 80% on Inkjet &amp; Toner Supplies. 100% Satisfaction=20
Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. <A href=3D"http://www.inksoutl=
et.comhttp://click.topica.com/caacAsfa2i6Ysa7fLLnb/Inksoutlet--------------=
-----------------------------------------------------">www.inksoutlet.com
</A><A href=3D"http://click.topica.com/caacAsfa2i6Ysa7fLLnb/Inksoutlet">htt=
p://click.topica.com/caacAsfa2i6Ysa7fLLnb/Inksoutlet</A>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
    </PRE>Here is a Japanese pro rating site. I don't know the accuracy of=
=20
      it.<BR><BR><A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
      href=3D"http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/t-higu/shogi/pro-rating.html">http://w=
ww.hi-ho.ne.jp/t-higu/shogi/pro-rating.html</A><BR><BR>Bob<BR><BR>Pieter=
=20
      Stouten wrote:<BR>
      <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmid1984539728-1463792126-1093612766 <at> boing <dot> topica <dot> c=
om=20
      type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Your free subscription is supported by t=
oday's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Save up to 80% on Inkjet &amp; Toner Supplies. 100% Satisfaction=20
Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbrev=
iated href=3D"http://www.inksoutlet.com">www.inksoutlet.com</A>
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext href=3D"http://click.topica.com/caacAsfa2i=
6Ysa7fLJda/Inksoutlet">http://click.topica.com/caacAsfa2i6Ysa7fLJda/Inksout=
let</A>
-------------------------------------------------------------------

--- Larry Kaufman <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E href=3D"mailto:lkaufman@=
comcast.net">&lt;lkaufman <at> comcast <dot> net&gt;</A> wrote:

  </PRE>
        <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">We have an ELO rating syst=
em for shogi outside Japan, called the
"Pan-Atlantic" rating system. 5 Dan is centered at 2340. My actual
Pan-Atlantic shogi rating is 2354, ...

    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->For a description of the ratin=
g system and the most recent Pan-Atlantic
Elo list, please refer to the following pages:

<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext href=3D"http://www.shogi.net/fesa/ratings.=
html">http://www.shogi.net/fesa/ratings.html</A>
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext href=3D"http://www.shogi.net/fesa/rating.i=
ntro">http://www.shogi.net/fesa/rating.intro</A>
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext href=3D"http://www.shogi.net/fesa/ratingli=
sts/latest.txt">http://www.shogi.net/fesa/ratinglists/latest.txt</A>

Enjoy!

Pieter

Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Stories from the Civil Rights Movement. Extraordinary stories,=20
ordinary people. Share your memories today!
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext href=3D"http://click.topica.com/caacvgla2i=
6Ysa7fLJdf/AARP">http://click.topica.com/caacvgla2i6Ysa7fLJdf/AARP</A>
-------------------------------------------------------------------





  </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>Your free subscription is supported by today's sp=
onsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Sponsor a child today through Children International.=20=20
Give a desperately poor child hope for a brighter future.
For only $18 a month you can make a difference!
<A href=3D"http://click.topica.com/caacvgoa2i6Ysa7fLLng/ChildrenInternation=
al">http://click.topica.com/caacvgoa2i6Ysa7fLLng/ChildrenInternational</A>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>Your free subscription is supported by today's =
sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Need cash fast? Get a $500 CASH ADVANCE overnight! Let=20
YourCashCentral get you the cash you need.
<A href=3D"http://click.topica.com/caacxyca2i6Ysa7fLJdg/MyOnlinePayday">htt=
p://click.topica.com/caacxyca2i6Ysa7fLJdg/MyOnlinePayday</A>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
  </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>Your free subscription is supported by today's sp=
onsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
RE-GROW YOUR HAIR STARTING NOW.....Click here for more info!
<A href=3D"http://click.topica.com/caacxyda2i6Ysa7fLLng/Medical">http://cli=
ck.topica.com/caacxyda2i6Ysa7fLLng/Medical</A> Hair Restoration
-------------------------------------------------------------------
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>=
<PRE>Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy Stocks and Index Funds for just $4 No Account or=20
Investment Minimums and No Inactivity Fees Automatically=20
invest weekly or monthly and build your future.
<A HREF=3D"http://click.topica.com/=
caacvgga2i6YsbnuqMag/Sharebuilder">http://click.topica.com/=
caacvgga2i6YsbnuqMag/Sharebuilder</A>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
</PRE>
<PRE>--^^-------------------------------------------------=
--------------
This email was sent to: =
shogi-l <at> shogi <dot> net

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: <A HREF=3D"http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.=
bnuqMa.=
c2hvZ2kt">http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.=
bnuqMa.=
c2hvZ2kt</A>
Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe <at> topica <dot> com

For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit:
<A HREF=3D"http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER">http://www.topica.com/?p=
=3DTEXFOOTER</A>
--^^---------------------------------------------------------------</PRE>
</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C48C2F.9DB06070--