From: E R webtv net> Date: 26 aug 2004 Subject: Re: Professional shogi game time management --WebTV-Mail-2362-1612 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Save up to 80% on Inkjet & Toner Supplies. 100% Satisfaction=20 Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. www.inksoutlet.com http://click.topica.com/= caacAsfa2i6YsbnuqMaa/Inksoutlet ------------------------------------------------------------------- byo-yomi ? What is that, losing on time? Viswanathan Anand--who was he? Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Sponsor a child today through Children International.=20=20 Give a desperately poor child hope for a brighter future. For only $18 a month you can make a difference! http://click.topica.com/= caacvgoa2i6YsbnuqMaf/ChildrenInternational ------------------------------------------------------------------- --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= bnuqMa.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^---------------------------------------------------------------- --WebTV-Mail-2362-1612 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-3204.bay.webtv.net (209.240.204.229) by storefull-3276.bay.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:51:00 -0700 Received: from out008.topica-platinum-w.com (out008.topica-platinum-w.com [65.77.104.28]) by smtpin-3204.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with SMTP id F338EFE03 for webtv net>; Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2015 invoked by uid 0); 26 Aug 2004 15:50:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailrtr03.ntelos.net) (216.12.0.103) by 0 with SMTP; 26 Aug 2004 15:50:52 -0000 Received: from e4k74 (216-12-58-185.access.ntelos.net [216.12.58.185]) by mailrtr03.ntelos.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with SMTP id i7QFooq18839 for topica com>; Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:50:50 -0400 References: <193402509-1463792126-1093512979 boing topica com> <2030731726-1463792382-1093521238 boing topica com> <1045723268-1463792638-1093527053 boing topica com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 To: shogi topica com From: David J Bush cstone net> Subject: Re: Professional shogi game time management Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:50:18 -0400 Message-ID: <1534828133-1463747838-1093535454 boing topica com> Errors-To: boing topica com> Reply-To: shogi topica com X-Topica-Id: <1093535452.inmta008.topica.com.21644.3547273> List-Help: topica com/> List-Unsubscribe: topica com> X-Brightmail: Message tested, results are inconclusive Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Save up to 80% on Inkjet & Toner Supplies. 100% Satisfaction=20 Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. www.inksoutlet.com http://click.topica.com/= caacAsfa2i6Ysbn8jDxa/Inksoutlet ------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry Kaufman wrote: > ... > But I would add that even in chess, pros often spend a huge chunk of= > their allotted time on the first move or two after first reaching a posit= ion > outside their preparation. Or, if they find themselves following a previo= us > game but one that they have not studied deeply at home with a computer, t= hey > may spend lots of time on a "known" move for the same reason as given abo= ve > in shogi. Certainly there are exceptions, but in general, chess grandmasters zip thro= ugh the opening moves much more quickly than shogi pros. > So in sum, transpositional frequency and computer strength are the > relevant differences between chess and shogi in the context of opening > preparation. Well, a computer need not be able to play well to be useful. Are shogi database manager programs widely used among shogi pros, the way ChessBase and similar programs are in the chess world? Even with much fewer games being played, this could be a very useful tool, especially if it recognizes when a position has been reached by transposition in a different game. There is also the issue of how much time is taken in the middlegame. If a chess player were to take over an hour for a single move, people might wonder if he had fallen asleep with his eyes open. But this is a rather unfair comparison, since most chess games use faster time controls than the matches Reijer reports on, and chess is arguably a simpler game. I believe all that ultimately matters is, does the quality of play tend to deteriorate when the players are at or near byo-yomi? Has there been any statistical study of this? Reijer Grimbergen wrote: | The move order explanation is very appealing, but I am pretty sure that= =20 | I can find a title match game which not only had a know position after= =20 | the first day, but also a move order that was exactly the same as in a= =20 | game played before which was known to both players. The Kakugawari=20 | opening has been analysed so deeply that it is very likely that this=20 | occured (maybe more than once). Maybe inertia is involved here. No player has a strong motivation to play faster, if he is successful when playing slowly. | BTW, there is a somewhat related issue that I always wondered about.=20 | Suzuki Daisuke is famous for his fast play, often finishing games with= =20 | less than an hour used. He seems to have slown down a little lately, but= =20 | about 6 years ago he was very fast. However, when he became challenger= =20 | for the Ryu-O title against Fujii in 1999, he suddenly slowed down to a= =20 | normal title match pace. I always wondered if he was just following=20 | protocol, wanting to spare the organizers the embarrassment of finishing= =20 | a title match game in one instead of two days or if he really suddenly= =20 | found things to think about. He sounds like a Viswanathan Anand of shogi. :-) Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Need cash fast? Get a $500 CASH ADVANCE overnight! Let=20 YourCashCentral get you the cash you need. http://click.topica.com/= caacxyca2i6Ysbn8jDxf/MyOnlinePayday ------------------------------------------------------------------- --WebTV-Mail-2362-1612--