From: E R webtv net> Date: 26 aug 2004 Subject: Re: Professional shogi game time management --WebTV-Mail-17568-1068 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Save up to 80% on Inkjet & Toner Supplies. 100% Satisfaction=20 Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. www.inksoutlet.com http://click.topica.com/= caacAsfa2i6YsbnuqMaa/Inksoutlet ------------------------------------------------------------------- Does Mr. Kaufman consider himself equally adept at ShoGi and Chess ? I am curious what ELO rating a 5 dan compares to. About Go I once heard a comparison of amateur versus professional ratings. A professional shodan (1st dan) could give an amateur shodan 7 stones. Is it the same in ShoGi?=20 Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Buy Stocks and Index Funds for just $4 No Account or=20 Investment Minimums and No Inactivity Fees Automatically=20 invest weekly or monthly and build your future. http://click.topica.com/= caacvgga2i6YsbnuqMaf/Sharebuilder ------------------------------------------------------------------- --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= bnuqMa.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^---------------------------------------------------------------- --WebTV-Mail-17568-1068 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-3114.bay.webtv.net (209.240.204.224) by storefull-3278.bay.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Thu, 26 Aug 2004 04:54:05 -0700 Received: from out005.topica-platinum-w.com (unknown [65.77.104.25]) by smtpin-3114.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with SMTP id C7BA411DC5 for webtv net>; Thu, 26 Aug 2004 04:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 13416 invoked by uid 0); 26 Aug 2004 11:53:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rwcrmhc12.comcast.net) (216.148.227.85) by 0 with SMTP; 26 Aug 2004 11:53:46 -0000 Received: from 2800mhz (pcp07751025pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net[69.138.199.239]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <20040826115345014007og67e>; Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:53:45 +0000 References: <193402509-1463792126-1093512979 boing topica com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 To: shogi topica com From: Larry Kaufman comcast net> Subject: Re: Professional shogi game time management Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:53:52 -0400 Message-ID: <2030731726-1463792382-1093521238 boing topica com> Errors-To: boing topica com> Reply-To: shogi topica com X-Topica-Id: <1093521232.inmta008.topica.com.21644.3525008> List-Help: topica com/> List-Unsubscribe: topica com> X-Brightmail: Message tested, results are inconclusive Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Save up to 80% on Inkjet & Toner Supplies. 100% Satisfaction=20 Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. www.inksoutlet.com http://click.topica.com/= caacAsfa2i6Ysbn8jDxa/Inksoutlet ------------------------------------------------------------------- I tend to agree with Reijer's comments, though not completely. I believe that shogi pros do generally trust their preparation, though not as= much as chess pros, for the simple reason that chess preparation is always checked by computers of World Champion level strength, while shogi programs= are not yet strong enough to be useful for pros (except for tsume problems)= . As for shogi openings being more subtle than chess openings, I wouldn't hav= e put it that way, but Reijer's subsequent comments are accurate. The main point to me is that because of the double initial move of the chess pawn, the opposing armies often come into contact after one or two moves, whereas= in shogi early contact is rare, except for openings with an early bishop exchange. This and the larger board mean that there are far more possibilities of transposition of moves in shogi than in chess, plus as Reijer says the question of edge pawn pushes. So I think that most of the deep thinking in the opening in pro shogi relates to one player making his moves in a different order than usual (or adding or omitting an edge push),= so the other player spends a lot of time to decide whether he can safely play his intended set-up against that move order or perhaps punish the new move order by changing his plans. So even if a standard position arises at the end of a day's play, if the move order was different from earlier games= it is not so strange to me. Also, even if the exact order had occurred before, the top pros may be spending time trying to anticipate a possible new move by the opponent and thinking about whether it is possible to vary so as to avoid the new move. But I would add that even in chess, pros often spend a huge chunk of their allotted time on the first move or two after first reaching a positio= n outside their preparation. Or, if they find themselves following a previous= game but one that they have not studied deeply at home with a computer, the= y may spend lots of time on a "known" move for the same reason as given above= in shogi. So in sum, transpositional frequency and computer strength are the relevant differences between chess and shogi in the context of opening preparation. Larry Kaufman (shogi amateur 5 Dan and chess International Master) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Richard Sams" parkcity ne jp> To: topica com> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 5:37 AM Subject: Re: Professional shogi game time management On 2004.8.26, at 05:33 PM, Reijer Grimbergen wrote: > 1) Unlike chess players, shogi professionals do not trust their > preparation. I have often heard and read that shogi professionals need > the deep concentration over the board to really understand a position. > 2) Shogi openings are much more subtle than chess openings. An edge > pawn pushed or not, changing the order of certain moves, entering the > castle in a different way can all have an important impact on the > position. I am rather surprised that Reijer should make these generalizations. How does he know that chess players trust their preparation and that chess openings are much less subtle than shogi openings? Unless you have an equally deep understanding of chess and shogi, such assertions are little more than prejudices. I would be very interested to hear Larry Kaufmann's views on the above. Richard Sams Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Sponsor a child today through Children International. Give a desperately poor child hope for a brighter future. For only $18 a month you can make a difference! http://click.topica.com/caacvgoa2i6Ysa7fLLnf/ChildrenInternational ------------------------------------------------------------------- Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Stories from the Civil Rights Movement. Extraordinary stories,=20 ordinary people. Share your memories today! http://click.topica.com/= caacvgla2i6Ysbn8jDxf/AARP ------------------------------------------------------------------- --WebTV-Mail-17568-1068--