From: Reijer Grimbergen yz yamagata-u ac jp> Date: 26 aug 2004 Subject: Re: Professional shogi game time management Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Save up to 80% on Inkjet & Toner Supplies. 100% Satisfaction=20 Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. www.inksoutlet.com http://click.topica.com/= caacAsfa2i6YsbnuqMaa/Inksoutlet ------------------------------------------------------------------- Because there was no response to what I think could be an interesting=20 discussion (I have often wondered the same thing), I may have written my= =20 reply a little bit hastily. I never intended to put shogi on a higher=20 level in chess (hey, chess is much more popular than shogi, so it must=20 at least have something going for it ;-) ), and the word "subtle" seems=20 to have a much more positive ring to it than I had thought or intended.=20 What I wanted to say if I had taken the time is perfectly explained by=20 Larry below. Thank you very much, Larry. The move order explanation is very appealing, but I am pretty sure that=20 I can find a title match game which not only had a know position after=20 the first day, but also a move order that was exactly the same as in a=20 game played before which was known to both players. The Kakugawari=20 opening has been analysed so deeply that it is very likely that this=20 occured (maybe more than once). BTW, there is a somewhat related issue that I always wondered about.=20 Suzuki Daisuke is famous for his fast play, often finishing games with=20 less than an hour used. He seems to have slown down a little lately, but= =20 about 6 years ago he was very fast. However, when he became challenger=20 for the Ryu-O title against Fujii in 1999, he suddenly slowed down to a=20 normal title match pace. I always wondered if he was just following=20 protocol, wanting to spare the organizers the embarrassment of finishing= =20 a title match game in one instead of two days or if he really suddenly=20 found things to think about. Reijer Larry Kaufman wrote: >=20 > I tend to agree with Reijer's comments, though not completely. I > believe that shogi pros do generally trust their preparation, though not = as > much as chess pros, for the simple reason that chess preparation is alway= s > checked by computers of World Champion level strength, while shogi progra= ms > are not yet strong enough to be useful for pros (except for tsume problem= s). > As for shogi openings being more subtle than chess openings, I wouldn't h= ave > put it that way, but Reijer's subsequent comments are accurate. The main > point to me is that because of the double initial move of the chess pawn,= > the opposing armies often come into contact after one or two moves, where= as > in shogi early contact is rare, except for openings with an early bishop > exchange. This and the larger board mean that there are far more > possibilities of transposition of moves in shogi than in chess, plus as > Reijer says the question of edge pawn pushes. So I think that most of the= > deep thinking in the opening in pro shogi relates to one player making hi= s > moves in a different order than usual (or adding or omitting an edge push= ), > so the other player spends a lot of time to decide whether he can safely > play his intended set-up against that move order or perhaps punish the ne= w > move order by changing his plans. So even if a standard position arises a= t > the end of a day's play, if the move order was different from earlier gam= es > it is not so strange to me. Also, even if the exact order had occurred > before, the top pros may be spending time trying to anticipate a possible= > new move by the opponent and thinking about whether it is possible to var= y > so as to avoid the new move. > But I would add that even in chess, pros often spend a huge chunk of= > their allotted time on the first move or two after first reaching a posit= ion > outside their preparation. Or, if they find themselves following a previo= us > game but one that they have not studied deeply at home with a computer, t= hey > may spend lots of time on a "known" move for the same reason as given abo= ve > in shogi. > So in sum, transpositional frequency and computer strength are the > relevant differences between chess and shogi in the context of opening > preparation. >=20 > Larry Kaufman (shogi amateur 5 Dan and chess International Master) >=20 --=20 Reijer Grimbergen Department of Informatics, Yamagata University Jonan 4-3-16, Yonezawa, 992-8510 Japan Tel: +81-(0)238-26-3740 FAX: +81-(0)238-26-3299 http://gamelab.yz.yamagata-u.ac.jp/ Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Buy Stocks and Index Funds for just $4 No Account or=20 Investment Minimums and No Inactivity Fees Automatically=20 invest weekly or monthly and build your future. http://click.topica.com/= caacvgga2i6YsbnuqMaf/Sharebuilder ------------------------------------------------------------------- --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= bnuqMa.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------