From: Larry Kaufman comcast net> Date: 26 aug 2004 Subject: Re: Professional shogi game time management Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Save up to 80% on Inkjet & Toner Supplies. 100% Satisfaction=20 Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. www.inksoutlet.com http://click.topica.com/= caacAsfa2i6YsbnuqMaa/Inksoutlet ------------------------------------------------------------------- I tend to agree with Reijer's comments, though not completely. I believe that shogi pros do generally trust their preparation, though not as= much as chess pros, for the simple reason that chess preparation is always checked by computers of World Champion level strength, while shogi programs= are not yet strong enough to be useful for pros (except for tsume problems)= . As for shogi openings being more subtle than chess openings, I wouldn't hav= e put it that way, but Reijer's subsequent comments are accurate. The main point to me is that because of the double initial move of the chess pawn, the opposing armies often come into contact after one or two moves, whereas= in shogi early contact is rare, except for openings with an early bishop exchange. This and the larger board mean that there are far more possibilities of transposition of moves in shogi than in chess, plus as Reijer says the question of edge pawn pushes. So I think that most of the deep thinking in the opening in pro shogi relates to one player making his moves in a different order than usual (or adding or omitting an edge push),= so the other player spends a lot of time to decide whether he can safely play his intended set-up against that move order or perhaps punish the new move order by changing his plans. So even if a standard position arises at the end of a day's play, if the move order was different from earlier games= it is not so strange to me. Also, even if the exact order had occurred before, the top pros may be spending time trying to anticipate a possible new move by the opponent and thinking about whether it is possible to vary so as to avoid the new move. But I would add that even in chess, pros often spend a huge chunk of their allotted time on the first move or two after first reaching a positio= n outside their preparation. Or, if they find themselves following a previous= game but one that they have not studied deeply at home with a computer, the= y may spend lots of time on a "known" move for the same reason as given above= in shogi. So in sum, transpositional frequency and computer strength are the relevant differences between chess and shogi in the context of opening preparation. Larry Kaufman (shogi amateur 5 Dan and chess International Master) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Richard Sams" parkcity ne jp> To: topica com> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 5:37 AM Subject: Re: Professional shogi game time management On 2004.8.26, at 05:33 PM, Reijer Grimbergen wrote: > 1) Unlike chess players, shogi professionals do not trust their > preparation. I have often heard and read that shogi professionals need > the deep concentration over the board to really understand a position. > 2) Shogi openings are much more subtle than chess openings. An edge > pawn pushed or not, changing the order of certain moves, entering the > castle in a different way can all have an important impact on the > position. I am rather surprised that Reijer should make these generalizations. How does he know that chess players trust their preparation and that chess openings are much less subtle than shogi openings? Unless you have an equally deep understanding of chess and shogi, such assertions are little more than prejudices. I would be very interested to hear Larry Kaufmann's views on the above. Richard Sams Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Sponsor a child today through Children International. Give a desperately poor child hope for a brighter future. For only $18 a month you can make a difference! http://click.topica.com/caacvgoa2i6Ysa7fLLnf/ChildrenInternational ------------------------------------------------------------------- Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Stories from the Civil Rights Movement. Extraordinary stories,=20 ordinary people. Share your memories today! http://click.topica.com/= caacvgla2i6YsbnuqMaf/AARP ------------------------------------------------------------------- --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= bnuqMa.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------