From: bogin yahoo co jp> Date: 19 aug 2004 Subject: Re: The myth of the "kanji barrier" Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Save up to 67% on Omaha Steaks + Get 6 FREE Burgers and a=20 FREE Cutlery Set + Cutting Board! http://click.topica.com/= caacvgpa2i6YsbnuqMaa/OmahaSteaks ------------------------------------------------------------------- I know very little about Go so I didn't know that "keima" was also a Go term as well. "Keima" is almost always translated as knight by most English language books on shogi. I don't believe that this is a literal translation but is simply done to make it easier for chessplayers to understand. I have never heard the word used by Japanese other than in a shogi context. Most dictionaries decent Japanese-English will point this fact out. When Japanese talk about knights (ie: King Arthur types), they don't use the word "keima", they use the word "kishi" (same pronuciation as the word used for shogi pro but different characters).=20 I would imagine that most beginner books on shogi list the names of the pieces in Japanese as well as English. Then to see what they mean outside of a shogi context, just check any Japanese-English dictionary. There are some free ones on the Internet. Just search for Japanese-English (or French, or German, or whatever language) dictionaries. Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get a Great Credit Card for You Today=20 > You can find a credit card to fit your credit needs.=20=20 > All types of credit cards -- 0% APRs, Rewards, & Bad Credit. > http://click.topica.com/caacvgua2i6Ysa7fLJaa/411Web > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I learned the word keima from Go literature and that it meant knight > in > relation to a knight's extension. I still would not mind being told > what > the names mean. It would not harm me to learn a few Japanese words. >=20 > I meant to say that if hieroglyphics were a person that I would > likely > owe them an apology for badmouthing them. >=20 > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Save up to 67% on Omaha Steaks + Get 6 FREE Burgers and a=20 > FREE Cutlery Set + Cutting Board! > http://click.topica.com/caacvgpa2i6Ysa7fLJaf/OmahaSteaks > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822=20 > To: shogi topica com > From: bogin yahoo co jp> > Subject: Re: The myth of the "kanji barrier" > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:10:42 +0900 (JST) >=20 > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amazing Diet Patch > The fastest - Easiest way to lose weight! Try it now FREE! > http://click.topica.com/caacvgta2i6Ysbn8jDxa/MyDietPatches > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I don't think anyone is asking you to apologize. >=20 > BTW, I don't know anything about heiroglyphics but I do know that an > eye > in kanji looks like an eye. You have to look at from a different > angle but > it does look like it is not too hard to make the connection. Kanji > developed in many different ways, but quite a few of them evolved > from > simple pictograms like the tree, woods, and forest example you gave > in your > post. >=20 > Chess terms such as knight, pawn, bishop etc,etc were probably > applied to > shogi by someone long ago as a way of making it easier to understand > for > chessplayers. Most of the time those terms are not very accurate > translations of what the pieces mean. Maybe that is the problem. When > some > people (chess players) hear a shogi piece being called a knight, > king, > bishop, rook, or pawn, perhaps based on their knowledge they expect > them to > look like a chess knight, king, bishop, rook, or a pawn. So, perhaps > the > confusion is caused not an inability to read kanji but by good yet > oversimplified attempts to translate the names of pieces and make > them they > are not ( ie: chess pieces ). If you use the correct names of the > pieces > then maybe all of our preconceptions about how the pieces should look > will > disappear. Most people (chess players) know what a "knight" looks > like, but > how many people have ever seen a "keima". You may have seen a "rook" > or > "bishop" countless times but have you ever seen a "hisha" or > "kakugyo".=20 > "Fragrant Chariot or Lance", "Silver General", and "Gold General" > have no > equivalents in chess so maybe there translations are a little more > accurate > but even still it is probably better to use "kyousha", ginsho" and > "kinsho". >=20 > So, maybe the key is too start teaching beginners (especially chess > players) that although similiar in some ways shogi and chess are > completely > different games. from the very beginning start teaching them the > correct > names of the pieces not the English translation. The say a "keima" is > a > "keima" and this is how it moves. If they think it moves similiar to > a > knight then let them make that connection themselves. Don't call a > "kakugyo" a "bishop", use "kakugyou" or simply just "kaku". I am > pretty > sure that over time people will soon make there own ways to > distinguish the > pieces and remember how each moves. The desire to over translate > everything > has probably reached its course. Think of the names of the pieces as > proper > nouns that don't need to be translated. >=20 > I believe that when Japanese learn chess they do not usually > translate the > names of the pieces into kanji or give them completely different > names. > They simply write or say the phonetic equivalent in Japanese. So, if > you > say bishop to a Japanese chess player he probably thinks of a chess > bishop. > I have a feeling that the image of a "kaku" doesn't pop into his > head. They > may make mental comparisons between the two games at first, but I > don't > think they do so for very long. I truly feel that if you really want > to get > better at shogi and improve your play, then at some point you have to > stop > thinking of shogi as "Japanese chess", and simply see it as shogi. > Once you > do that then how the pieces look or what's written on them no longer > are no > longer so mysterious. Take all of the chess names out of the equation > and > all your left is shogi terms. Learn the correct terminology and the > pieces > will be come easier to distinguish. Play a lot of games over time and > eventually you will become able to instantly distguish one from the > other. >=20 > Again, no one has suggested that you need to learn 2000 kanji or > speak > fluent Japanese to play shogi. The 2000 (actually I think it's 1945) > was a > reference to the number of joyo or standard kanji that the Japanese > are > expected to be able to understand once they have completed high > school. > These are the kanji that government have designated as standard. But, > there > are many thousands more kanji and if knowing them all was a > requirement to > play shogi then very few Japanese would be able to play the game. >=20 > Finally, to me a "keima" does look like a man on a horse holding a > spear > when you see the two characters written vertically. A "fu" ( pawn) > looks > like a foot soldier walking holding a short sword. A "kaku" looks > like a > horned beast slicing it's way through battle at an angle, a "sha or > "hisha" > looks likes like is flying at high speed kind of like a bullet. That > is how > I see the pieces and I see it almost instantly.=20 >=20 > webtv net> =1B$B$+$i$N%a%C%;!<%8!'=1B(B > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Save up to 67% on Omaha Steaks + Get 6 FREE Burgers and a=20 > > FREE Cutlery Set + Cutting Board! > > http://click.topica.com/caacvgpa2i6Ysa7fLJaa/OmahaSteaks > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >=20 > > Well, I did it again! Now I owe an apology to hieroglyphics it > seems. > >=20 > > I once met a man at the place of an acquaintance who was hosting us > > to > > play Go who told me something about Chinese writing. He showed the > > symbol for a tree, that two meant a woods, and three a forest. He > > also > > told us that Chinese had sound symbols used to write the names of > > foreigners and that there were two types of court writing, one used > > by > > the men and another by the women if I recall correctly. > >=20 > > We recently had an exhibit of Egyptian treasures here. I got to see > a > > replica of the Rosetta Stone. > >=20 > > It seems to me that the hieroglyphics metaphor was a bad choice on > my > > part. Maybe hieroglyphics are easier to puzzle out than kanji. A > > painting/drawing of an eye in hieroglyphics looks like an eye to > me. > > I > > don't need to puzzle out what it is supposed to look like. I know > > instantly. That is what would be nice in a Shogi set in this > > Westerners > > opinion. Instant recognition without needing to puzzle out > something. > > (Kanji is not the only offender here in my opinion. I had two years > > of > > German in high school. The letters for "B" and "V" look far too > > alike.) > > Look at western chess pieces. The knight looks like the head of a > > horse > > which is known to be what knights rode. The knowledge of how the > > knight > > moves must be gained, but there is no trouble recognizing that the > > piece > > is a knight at the snap of a finger. I would like to be able to > > recognize that the piece is a spear, or knight, or silver general, > or > > gold general that fast. Instant recognition. Something like > Japanese > > hieroglyphics might be the answer. I once had a Florentine chess > set > > by > > Gallant Knight=1B$B!&=1B(Bin which each piece looked like a statue of w= hat it > > was supposed to be. Would something like that work for ShoGi, > namely > > flat drawings of the characters that actually look somewhat like > what > > such a character would look like? Maybe they'd be simplified > > versions. > > In chess one doesn't need the whole horse with armored knight with > > shield on top to recognize a knight. I suspect that symbol would > even > > work in Japan where the samurai rode horses too. The Kings? Biggest > > piece with no others like them. Pawns? Many of them. Dead giveaway. > > Rooks and Bishops? What was the historical source like? (I would > not > > want to confuse those two in play especially if touch move is > > required.) > > Did they use towers atop elephants? Then the tower top symbol could > > be > > used. Maybe you have a better one. For me the others were the > > problem. > > It may have been puzzling out whether pieces were knights or silver > > generals. > >=20 > > About kanji, I think I could learn it, but 2,000 characters is many > > more > > than 26. would the japanese or Chinese want to learn kanji > > themselves > > if they knew alphabet merely to recognize game pieces? It seems > like > > a > > large effort for the return. > >=20 > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Get a Great Credit Card for You Today=20 > > You can find a credit card to fit your credit needs.=20=20 > > All types of credit cards -- 0% APRs, Rewards, & Bad Credit. > > http://click.topica.com/caacvgua2i6Ysa7fLJaf/411Web > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822=20 > > To: shogi topica com > > From: Richard Sams parkcity ne jp> > > Subject: Re: The myth of the "kanji barrier" > > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:50:47 +0900 > >=20 > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Amazing Diet Patch > > The fastest - Easiest way to lose weight! Try it now FREE! > > http://click.topica.com/caacvgta2i6Ysbn8jDxa/MyDietPatches > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >=20 > > I am surprised that so much discussion has been generated by this=20 > > question of whether the kanji on shogi pieces put people off or > make=20 > > the game more difficult to learn. My first encounter with kanji was >=20 > > when a Japanese student at a language school where I was teaching=20 > > taught me shogi. I remember being struck by the beauty of the > Chinese > >=20 > > characters and attracted to the game partly for that reason. Even=20 > > though I had never seen kanji before, it did not take me long to > > become=20 > > familiar with the pieces (though perhaps a little longer than the 3 >=20 > > minutes which, according to Danerud Martin, the average Swedish=20 > > beginner requires!). After all, there are only eight types of > pattern > >=20 > > to remember. Anyway, I found these "hieroglyphics," as one person=20 > > surprisingly refers to them, very appealing and started studying=20 > > Japanese. That took me to Japan and, to cut a long story short, I > > have=20 > > been living here for 15 years, working as a translator. > >=20 > > In an earlier post, Paul Smith wrote: > >=20 > > "But I think that the key question is - are there a significant > > number=20 > > of people who are put off trying shogi because of the kanji? And > from > >=20 > > my personal experience (I could give various examples) I am > confident > >=20 > > that the answer is yes." > >=20 > > My personal experience is the opposite and I am pretty sure the > > answer=20 > > is no. The kanji made shogi more attractive and interesting for me > > and=20 > > I have heard several people say the same. Of course we can never > know > >=20 > > for sure how many people have been "put off" because we are not > > likely=20 > > to meet them, but I very much doubt that shogi players in the west=20 > > constitute a small minority who were not put off and managed to=20 > > overcome this barrier through dogged and persistent efforts. I am > > more=20 > > inclined to believe that even fewer people would have been > attracted > > to=20 > > the game if they only saw the kanji-less sets (especially those > with=20 > > just letters and arrows). Some participants in this discussion seem > > to=20 > > believe that there is a vast untapped shogi population out there in > > the=20 > > west and we only need really nice-looking occident-friendly shogi=20 > > pieces to draw them in. This seems to me very unlikely. I think the >=20 > > shogi population in the west will always be tiny, consisting mainly > > of=20 > > eccentrics like you and me! This is what experience over the past > 20 > >=20 > > years tells us (sadly, I hear that the MSO shogi tournament this > year > >=20 > > has just been canceled due to lack of entries). > >=20 > > When Habu was asked why shogi did not catch on big-time in the > west, > > he=20 > > simply replied "because they have chess." I also think this is the >=20 > > main reason. The kind of people who might get into shogi, already a >=20 > > very small percentage of the total population, are chess players. > > Paul=20 > > Smith believes that more chess players might take up shogi if the > > sets=20 > > were "westernized." But this assumes that chess players would want > to > >=20 > > play another type of chess. Why should they? There just aren't > enough > >=20 > > hours in the day. When I was into chess in my late teens and early=20 > > twenties, it was an all-consuming passion. How would an obsessive > > chess=20 > > player find the time to take up another type of chess that is as > deep > >=20 > > and difficult (if not more so)? And why would they want to? In my=20 > > experience, some chess players have even seemed a little > "threatened" > >=20 > > by the thought of a different type of chess that might be even > better > >=20 > > than the game they have devoted so much time to. I remember that I > > felt=20 > > some initial resistance to shogi, probably for this reason. The > kind > > of=20 > > chess players who get interested in shogi are those who are losing=20 > > interest in chess, or who have exceptional intellectual curiosity, > or > >=20 > > are exceptionally broadminded. They are a tiny fraction of the > small=20 > > chess-playing population. > >=20 > > I have another, more personal, reason for being annoyed by this > talk > > of=20 > > a "kanji barrier." The Japanese have a strong prejudice that > > foreigners=20 > > cannot be expected to master kanji. Even though they were imported > > from=20 > > China (at a time when Japan did not have a written language) they > are > >=20 > > somehow assumed to be uniquely Japanese and inaccessible to the=20 > > outsider. Admittedly it was hard work for me to memorize them, but > > you=20 > > only need to learn about 2,000 to read a newspaper and, because of=20 > > similarities among them, they can be learned in groups rather than=20 > > individually. In short, kanji are not as difficult as they look. > Even > >=20 > > so, when I meet a Japanese person and tell them that I translate > from > >=20 > > Japanese to English for a living, they invariably ask; "Can you > read=20 > > kanji as well?" This cultural prejudice is widespread and deep. It > is > >=20 > > shared, unfortunately, by Manabu Terao and Naohiro Sanada of the > ISPS > >=20 > > (International Shogi Popularization Society). They have spent > > countless=20 > > hours wracking their brains about this "kanji barrier," thinking > > about=20 > > the various different piece designs they could use, designing > special > >=20 > > stickers to put on the pieces, and seriously considering the=20 > > possibility of promoting shogi in Esperanto (I kid you not!). > Please=20 > > don't get me wrong - I do not doubt their sincerity and I know they >=20 > > have done a lot of good work in promoting shogi worldwide, but I > > still=20 > > can't help feeling sad that they have wasted too much energy on > this=20 > > non-problem. I once asked Mr. Sanada whether he had actually done a >=20 > > survey of western shogi players to determine whether they had had=20 > > difficulty familiarizing themselves with the kanji on the pieces. > He=20 > > looked quite perplexed! When I met him recently at the Shogi > Renmei, > > he=20 > > bemoaned the decrease in the shogi population in the west. "It's > the=20 > > kanji," he said, shaking his head. > >=20 > > I would be quite dismayed if this strange view caught on in the > west. > >=20 > > Richard Sams > >=20 > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Get a Great Credit Card for You Today=20 > > You can find a credit card to fit your credit needs.=20=20 > > All types of credit cards -- 0% APRs, Rewards, & Bad Credit. > > http://click.topica.com/caacvgua2i6Ysbn8jDxf/411Web > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > __________________________________________________ > GANBARE! NIPPON! > Yahoo! JAPAN JOC OFFICIAL INTERNET PORTAL SITE > http://mail.ganbare-nippon.yahoo.co.jp/ >=20 > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Save up to 67% on Omaha Steaks + Get 6 FREE Burgers and a=20 > FREE Cutlery Set + Cutting Board! > http://click.topica.com/caacvgpa2i6Ysbn8jDxf/OmahaSteaks > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 __________________________________________________ GANBARE! NIPPON! Yahoo! JAPAN JOC OFFICIAL INTERNET PORTAL SITE http://mail.ganbare-nippon.yahoo.co.jp/ Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Amazing Diet Patch The fastest - Easiest way to lose weight! 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