From: E R webtv net> Date: 18 aug 2004 Subject: Re: The myth of the "kanji barrier" --WebTV-Mail-30279-239 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Get a Great Credit Card for You Today=20 You can find a credit card to fit your credit needs.=20=20 All types of credit cards -- 0% APRs, Rewards, & Bad Credit. http://click.topica.com/= caacvgua2i6YsbnuqMaa/411Web ------------------------------------------------------------------- I learned the word keima from Go literature and that it meant knight in relation to a knight's extension. I still would not mind being told what the names mean. It would not harm me to learn a few Japanese words. I meant to say that if hieroglyphics were a person that I would likely owe them an apology for badmouthing them. Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Save up to 67% on Omaha Steaks + Get 6 FREE Burgers and a=20 FREE Cutlery Set + Cutting Board! http://click.topica.com/= caacvgpa2i6YsbnuqMaf/OmahaSteaks ------------------------------------------------------------------- --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= bnuqMa.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^---------------------------------------------------------------- --WebTV-Mail-30279-239 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-3107.bay.webtv.net (209.240.204.217) by storefull-3273.bay.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:10:53 -0700 Received: from out005.topica-platinum-w.com (unknown [65.77.104.25]) by smtpin-3107.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with SMTP id A0E17FE21 for webtv net>; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17133 invoked by uid 0); 17 Aug 2004 23:10:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web605.mail.yahoo.co.jp) (211.14.15.79) by 0 with SMTP; 17 Aug 2004 23:10:44 -0000 Received: from [219.63.144.55] by web605.mail.yahoo.co.jp via HTTP; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:10:42 JST In-Reply-To: <75317796-1463792382-1092777221 boing topica com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp To: shogi topica com From: bogin yahoo co jp> Subject: Re: The myth of the "kanji barrier" Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:10:42 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <260046335-1463792126-1092784246 boing topica com> Errors-To: boing topica com> Reply-To: shogi topica com X-Topica-Id: <1092784245.inmta010.12524.2503642> List-Help: topica com/> List-Unsubscribe: topica com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Brightmail: Message tested, results are inconclusive Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Amazing Diet Patch The fastest - Easiest way to lose weight! Try it now FREE! http://click.topica.com/= caacvgta2i6Ysbn8jDxa/MyDietPatches ------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think anyone is asking you to apologize. BTW, I don't know anything about heiroglyphics but I do know that an eye in kanji looks like an eye. You have to look at from a different angle but it does look like it is not too hard to make the connection. Kanji developed in many different ways, but quite a few of them evolved from simple pictograms like the tree, woods, and forest example you gave in your= post. Chess terms such as knight, pawn, bishop etc,etc were probably applied to shogi by someone long ago as a way of making it easier to understand for chessplayers. Most of the time those terms are not very accurate translations of what the pieces mean. Maybe that is the problem. When some people (chess players) hear a shogi piece being called a knight, king, bishop, rook, or pawn, perhaps based on their knowledge they expect them to= look like a chess knight, king, bishop, rook, or a pawn. So, perhaps the confusion is caused not an inability to read kanji but by good yet oversimplified attempts to translate the names of pieces and make them they= are not ( ie: chess pieces ). If you use the correct names of the pieces then maybe all of our preconceptions about how the pieces should look will disappear. Most people (chess players) know what a "knight" looks like, but= how many people have ever seen a "keima". You may have seen a "rook" or "bishop" countless times but have you ever seen a "hisha" or "kakugyo".=20 "Fragrant Chariot or Lance", "Silver General", and "Gold General" have no equivalents in chess so maybe there translations are a little more accurate= but even still it is probably better to use "kyousha", ginsho" and "kinsho". So, maybe the key is too start teaching beginners (especially chess players) that although similiar in some ways shogi and chess are completely= different games. from the very beginning start teaching them the correct names of the pieces not the English translation. The say a "keima" is a "keima" and this is how it moves. If they think it moves similiar to a knight then let them make that connection themselves. Don't call a "kakugyo" a "bishop", use "kakugyou" or simply just "kaku". I am pretty sure that over time people will soon make there own ways to distinguish the= pieces and remember how each moves. The desire to over translate everything= has probably reached its course. Think of the names of the pieces as proper= nouns that don't need to be translated. I believe that when Japanese learn chess they do not usually translate the names of the pieces into kanji or give them completely different names. They simply write or say the phonetic equivalent in Japanese. So, if you say bishop to a Japanese chess player he probably thinks of a chess bishop.= I have a feeling that the image of a "kaku" doesn't pop into his head. They= may make mental comparisons between the two games at first, but I don't think they do so for very long. I truly feel that if you really want to get= better at shogi and improve your play, then at some point you have to stop thinking of shogi as "Japanese chess", and simply see it as shogi. Once you= do that then how the pieces look or what's written on them no longer are no= longer so mysterious. Take all of the chess names out of the equation and all your left is shogi terms. Learn the correct terminology and the pieces will be come easier to distinguish. Play a lot of games over time and eventually you will become able to instantly distguish one from the other. Again, no one has suggested that you need to learn 2000 kanji or speak fluent Japanese to play shogi. The 2000 (actually I think it's 1945) was a reference to the number of joyo or standard kanji that the Japanese are expected to be able to understand once they have completed high school. These are the kanji that government have designated as standard. But, there= are many thousands more kanji and if knowing them all was a requirement to play shogi then very few Japanese would be able to play the game. Finally, to me a "keima" does look like a man on a horse holding a spear when you see the two characters written vertically. A "fu" ( pawn) looks like a foot soldier walking holding a short sword. A "kaku" looks like a horned beast slicing it's way through battle at an angle, a "sha or "hisha"= looks likes like is flying at high speed kind of like a bullet. That is how= I see the pieces and I see it almost instantly.=20 webtv net> =1B$B$+$i$N%a%C%;!<%8!'=1B(B > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Save up to 67% on Omaha Steaks + Get 6 FREE Burgers and a=20 > FREE Cutlery Set + Cutting Board! > http://click.topica.com/caacvgpa2i6Ysa7fLJaa/OmahaSteaks > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Well, I did it again! Now I owe an apology to hieroglyphics it seems. >=20 > I once met a man at the place of an acquaintance who was hosting us > to > play Go who told me something about Chinese writing. He showed the > symbol for a tree, that two meant a woods, and three a forest. He > also > told us that Chinese had sound symbols used to write the names of > foreigners and that there were two types of court writing, one used > by > the men and another by the women if I recall correctly. >=20 > We recently had an exhibit of Egyptian treasures here. I got to see a > replica of the Rosetta Stone. >=20 > It seems to me that the hieroglyphics metaphor was a bad choice on my > part. Maybe hieroglyphics are easier to puzzle out than kanji. A > painting/drawing of an eye in hieroglyphics looks like an eye to me. > I > don't need to puzzle out what it is supposed to look like. I know > instantly. That is what would be nice in a Shogi set in this > Westerners > opinion. Instant recognition without needing to puzzle out something. > (Kanji is not the only offender here in my opinion. I had two years > of > German in high school. The letters for "B" and "V" look far too > alike.) > Look at western chess pieces. The knight looks like the head of a > horse > which is known to be what knights rode. The knowledge of how the > knight > moves must be gained, but there is no trouble recognizing that the > piece > is a knight at the snap of a finger. I would like to be able to > recognize that the piece is a spear, or knight, or silver general, or > gold general that fast. Instant recognition. Something like Japanese > hieroglyphics might be the answer. I once had a Florentine chess set > by > Gallant Knight=1B$B!&=1B(Bin which each piece looked like a statue of wha= t it > was supposed to be. Would something like that work for ShoGi, namely > flat drawings of the characters that actually look somewhat like what > such a character would look like? Maybe they'd be simplified > versions. > In chess one doesn't need the whole horse with armored knight with > shield on top to recognize a knight. I suspect that symbol would even > work in Japan where the samurai rode horses too. The Kings? Biggest > piece with no others like them. Pawns? Many of them. Dead giveaway. > Rooks and Bishops? What was the historical source like? (I would not > want to confuse those two in play especially if touch move is > required.) > Did they use towers atop elephants? Then the tower top symbol could > be > used. Maybe you have a better one. For me the others were the > problem. > It may have been puzzling out whether pieces were knights or silver > generals. >=20 > About kanji, I think I could learn it, but 2,000 characters is many > more > than 26. would the japanese or Chinese want to learn kanji > themselves > if they knew alphabet merely to recognize game pieces? It seems like > a > large effort for the return. >=20 > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get a Great Credit Card for You Today=20 > You can find a credit card to fit your credit needs.=20=20 > All types of credit cards -- 0% APRs, Rewards, & Bad Credit. > http://click.topica.com/caacvgua2i6Ysa7fLJaf/411Web > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822=20 > To: shogi topica com > From: Richard Sams parkcity ne jp> > Subject: Re: The myth of the "kanji barrier" > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:50:47 +0900 >=20 > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amazing Diet Patch > The fastest - Easiest way to lose weight! Try it now FREE! > http://click.topica.com/caacvgta2i6Ysbn8jDxa/MyDietPatches > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I am surprised that so much discussion has been generated by this=20 > question of whether the kanji on shogi pieces put people off or make=20 > the game more difficult to learn. My first encounter with kanji was=20 > when a Japanese student at a language school where I was teaching=20 > taught me shogi. I remember being struck by the beauty of the Chinese >=20 > characters and attracted to the game partly for that reason. Even=20 > though I had never seen kanji before, it did not take me long to > become=20 > familiar with the pieces (though perhaps a little longer than the 3=20 > minutes which, according to Danerud Martin, the average Swedish=20 > beginner requires!). After all, there are only eight types of pattern >=20 > to remember. Anyway, I found these "hieroglyphics," as one person=20 > surprisingly refers to them, very appealing and started studying=20 > Japanese. That took me to Japan and, to cut a long story short, I > have=20 > been living here for 15 years, working as a translator. >=20 > In an earlier post, Paul Smith wrote: >=20 > "But I think that the key question is - are there a significant > number=20 > of people who are put off trying shogi because of the kanji? And from >=20 > my personal experience (I could give various examples) I am confident >=20 > that the answer is yes." >=20 > My personal experience is the opposite and I am pretty sure the > answer=20 > is no. The kanji made shogi more attractive and interesting for me > and=20 > I have heard several people say the same. Of course we can never know >=20 > for sure how many people have been "put off" because we are not > likely=20 > to meet them, but I very much doubt that shogi players in the west=20 > constitute a small minority who were not put off and managed to=20 > overcome this barrier through dogged and persistent efforts. I am > more=20 > inclined to believe that even fewer people would have been attracted > to=20 > the game if they only saw the kanji-less sets (especially those with=20 > just letters and arrows). Some participants in this discussion seem > to=20 > believe that there is a vast untapped shogi population out there in > the=20 > west and we only need really nice-looking occident-friendly shogi=20 > pieces to draw them in. This seems to me very unlikely. I think the=20 > shogi population in the west will always be tiny, consisting mainly > of=20 > eccentrics like you and me! This is what experience over the past 20 >=20 > years tells us (sadly, I hear that the MSO shogi tournament this year >=20 > has just been canceled due to lack of entries). >=20 > When Habu was asked why shogi did not catch on big-time in the west, > he=20 > simply replied "because they have chess." I also think this is the=20 > main reason. The kind of people who might get into shogi, already a=20 > very small percentage of the total population, are chess players. > Paul=20 > Smith believes that more chess players might take up shogi if the > sets=20 > were "westernized." But this assumes that chess players would want to >=20 > play another type of chess. Why should they? There just aren't enough >=20 > hours in the day. When I was into chess in my late teens and early=20 > twenties, it was an all-consuming passion. How would an obsessive > chess=20 > player find the time to take up another type of chess that is as deep >=20 > and difficult (if not more so)? And why would they want to? In my=20 > experience, some chess players have even seemed a little "threatened" >=20 > by the thought of a different type of chess that might be even better >=20 > than the game they have devoted so much time to. I remember that I > felt=20 > some initial resistance to shogi, probably for this reason. The kind > of=20 > chess players who get interested in shogi are those who are losing=20 > interest in chess, or who have exceptional intellectual curiosity, or >=20 > are exceptionally broadminded. They are a tiny fraction of the small=20 > chess-playing population. >=20 > I have another, more personal, reason for being annoyed by this talk > of=20 > a "kanji barrier." The Japanese have a strong prejudice that > foreigners=20 > cannot be expected to master kanji. Even though they were imported > from=20 > China (at a time when Japan did not have a written language) they are >=20 > somehow assumed to be uniquely Japanese and inaccessible to the=20 > outsider. Admittedly it was hard work for me to memorize them, but > you=20 > only need to learn about 2,000 to read a newspaper and, because of=20 > similarities among them, they can be learned in groups rather than=20 > individually. In short, kanji are not as difficult as they look. Even >=20 > so, when I meet a Japanese person and tell them that I translate from >=20 > Japanese to English for a living, they invariably ask; "Can you read=20 > kanji as well?" This cultural prejudice is widespread and deep. It is >=20 > shared, unfortunately, by Manabu Terao and Naohiro Sanada of the ISPS >=20 > (International Shogi Popularization Society). They have spent > countless=20 > hours wracking their brains about this "kanji barrier," thinking > about=20 > the various different piece designs they could use, designing special >=20 > stickers to put on the pieces, and seriously considering the=20 > possibility of promoting shogi in Esperanto (I kid you not!). Please=20 > don't get me wrong - I do not doubt their sincerity and I know they=20 > have done a lot of good work in promoting shogi worldwide, but I > still=20 > can't help feeling sad that they have wasted too much energy on this=20 > non-problem. I once asked Mr. Sanada whether he had actually done a=20 > survey of western shogi players to determine whether they had had=20 > difficulty familiarizing themselves with the kanji on the pieces. He=20 > looked quite perplexed! When I met him recently at the Shogi Renmei, > he=20 > bemoaned the decrease in the shogi population in the west. "It's the=20 > kanji," he said, shaking his head. >=20 > I would be quite dismayed if this strange view caught on in the west. >=20 > Richard Sams >=20 > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get a Great Credit Card for You Today=20 > You can find a credit card to fit your credit needs.=20=20 > All types of credit cards -- 0% APRs, Rewards, & Bad Credit. > http://click.topica.com/caacvgua2i6Ysbn8jDxf/411Web > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 __________________________________________________ GANBARE! NIPPON! Yahoo! 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