From: Larry Kaufman COMCAST NET> Date: 29 may 2003 Subject: Re: Dual ratings First of all, no one is claiming that Pan-Atlantic ratings or any other rating system is more "accurate" than SC24 ratings. Their ratings are internally consistent, and since they are based on many more games than any other ratings they should be the most "accurate". It's true that they measure slightly different attributes, including screen vision, mouse skill, and faster time limits (most games are straight 30" a move there), but these factors probably only affect ratings by less than half a rank except in rare cases. The issue is the correspondence of ratings to ranks. The correspondence used by Pan-Atlantic is intended to match the "average" ranking in Tokyo (and Osaka?) clubs, especially the Shinjuku Shogi Center (the world's largest club) and the two Shogi Renmei clubs. While our correspondence in ranking is not perfect, we are definitely comparable in the 3-5 Dan range, and somewhat stricter in the lower ranges. It is quite common for players ranked in the 1-4 kyu range on our scale to visit Tokyo and get a Shodan ranking from Shinjuku Shogi Center or Shogi Renmei Dojo. So no one can say we are too lenient with our ranks. Shogi Club 24 never made any attempt to be comparable to normal clubs. They let players join at whatever rank they choose. For reasons rooted in Japanese culture, the vast majority of Japanese underrate themselves, sometimes substantially. It's either due to modesty, or to a desire to win lots of games at the start, or because they read or were told that everyone is underranked on SC24. Whatever the reason, everyone I know except for you is normally ranked lower on SC24 than on Pan-Atlantic, Shinjuku Center, or Shogi Renmei systems, usually much lower. The Japanese Amateur Shogi Association is another story, I'm told; I believe they peg their ranks to a scale like SC24. If you are usually in the 2 Dan range (1700-1900) on SC24, then I'm sure you could successfully defend a 4 Dan rank either in the West, in Shinjuku Center, or at either Renmei club, but not necessarily at all other clubs. Perhaps you don't play at clubs often enough to get promoted, but surely you must score above 75% playing as a 2 Dan at any of the named clubs. Please comment. I received one more datapoint from a 2 Dan player with a Pan-Atlantic rating in the 1800s and an SC24 rating in the 1100s, right in line with the "divide by 2, add 1300" formula. As to why the ability to choose one's opponent causes the ratings to spread out more, this is a rather technical issue unsuitable for this forum, but it seems to be true, as the same phenomenon occurs in internet chess whenever one may choose his own opponents. That's why the rating differences between the two scales are so huge at lower levels but not at the top. By the above formula, the two scales converge at 2600, though I believe that the true point of convergence is more like 2700-2800; we can't say because pros play only a handful of games on Pan-Atlantic system, and those are all handicap games. Larry Kaufman > Isn't it remotely possible that it's the other way around for a lot of the > people out there. Isn't it possible that except for the top players out > there that the USSF and FESA rating systems are slightly over rating > people. Could it be that people are starting out way to high with their > initial rating when they first join Shogi Club 24 and are only slowly > moving toward their true playing strength. If I think I'm a 5 dan and sign > up as a 5 dan but it reality I'm way over my head, won't I mostly lose and > drop points until I end up where I really should have been in the first > place? > > I can understand 100, 200 or even 300 points difference between the 2 sets > of ratings and just figure it's a fluke or bad luck. Like I said not > everyone may be that good at online shogi. But, how can you explain 500, > 600, 700, 800 and in some cases higher differences between both ratings? It > seems strange to me to just say it's because Shogi Club 24 under rates > everyone. > > I don't have a current USSF rating but I did play in small 3-game > tournament in Chicago a few years back. I went 3-0 and I think I ended up > with a provisional rating of around 1970 or so. But, I think that was more > of a reflection of my opponents' numerical ratings than the actual quality > of play. I really am only a NSR 2 dan and I also happen to be a Shogi Club > 24 2 dan as well. I started at the bottom and worked my way up. I lose > games to lower rated players but I also beat higher rated players as well. > I win games on time and lose games in which I should win because of time. > But, it seems to all even out over the long haul and I feel I'm right where > I should be in playing strength at this time. I consider my Shogi club 24 > rating to be more accurate than any other rating I have. > > Isn't there anyone else out there like that as well? Doesn't anyone out > there have the same USSF/FESA rating as what they have on Shogi Club 24? Is > everyone out there under rated? Do any of the Japanese members of the > Amaren (Japanese Amateur Shogi Association) have Amaren ratings that our > much different from their Shogi 24 rating? > > > Bill Gaudry >