From: bogin YAHOO CO JP> Date: 3 aug 2003 Subject: Re: Beginner's Lessons No.1, Getting Orientated: Perspectives on Shogi and Chess No, I am sorry I have never read that article. I meant to put that in my original email but I forgot. And, no I am not a very strong chessplayer. And, I don't really believe that I am all that strong at shogi. What essentially is a won endgame? I player resigns when they feel that they have no chance to win, right? That is they have no chance to mate their opponent. Some players chose to play their games all the way out until the end until they are mated but some resign earlier because they know mate is unavoidable. The act of queening a pawn doesn't cause an opponent to resign just because there is another queen on the board but because they realize that that extra queen will allow their opponent to mate them. If the ultimate goal of chess was to queen a pawn then all games would end at that point. If the ultimate goal were queening a pawn ( making another queen ) then there would be no option of underpromotion would there? With respect to tokins, there is a saying that says " attacking with a tokin is must faster than it appears." Promoting a pawn in your opponent's camp is a huge advantage and often leads to a win. But, promoting a pawn doesn't always guarantee a win. I've seen many pro games where the one player has promoted a pawn (sometimes even more than one pawn) and they've still lost the game. While it is a huge adavantage to have it is not a 100% gaurantee of victory. How does a player win by force? What happens? Do they play wonderful moves which just simply win in all cases even if their opponent plays perfectly? More than likely, they play solid moves and look for weaknesses in their opponent's position, exploit that weakness, get an advantage, and increase that advantage until it evitable that they will mate their opponent. Where do those weakness come from? More than likely, they come from a misreading of the posistion or some other mistake that their opponent makes. If every game was won by force then what would be the point of playing. Black would win every game since no matter how white responded he would lose. There would be a certian move sequence that would win everytime regardless of how one's opponent defended? If 2 very strong players play a game of shogi and one of them were to lose a major piece with out any compensation at all then more than likely the game would be over for all practical purposes. Whether the player at such a disadvanatage plays on or immediately resigns is matter or personality. Of course, by playing on it is always possible to get lucky, have yuor opponent make a mistake and win. But chances are, given all things are equal, it would be very hard to overcome such a big material deficit if your opponent plays correctly. This is especially true in shogi since you are able to use captured pieces. Dropping a rook without compensation is bad but add on to that the fact that your opponent now has a rook in hand and you are in really deep trouble. Imagine what it would be like in handicap shogi, if not only your opponent had to remove one of his pieces, but he also had to give you that very same piece to use as you please. Someone as yourself with all of your knowledge and experience of handicap shogi would be near unbeatable if you could start off a rook-handicap game with an extra rook in hand. I know all about come back wins in shogi. I see them all the time. It happens all the time among pros. Someone makes a mistake and they get a bad and sometimes an even losing position but they hang in there and make things complicated, and wait for their opponent to make a mistake that let's them back into a game. Sometimes their opponent gets physically tired, or sometimes they run into time trouble, sometimes they get careless and over confident, sometimes they miscalculate and they will lose a game that the should have won with best play. So, some players play on and hope for the best. But, I think it's pretty unlikely that a top player would play on in a game in which they were a rook down without any compensation. They would simply assume that their would not blow it? There are no draws in shogi like there are in chess. However, there are instances of jishogi and sennichite. It seems that you assume that almost all draws are due to bad moves. That they must be the results of multiple mistkes that cancel each other out. But, could it be possible that a draw is the result of good play? Both players simply play good moves and nobody makes any major mistakes so nobody can get a winning advantage. Aren't these types of draws more common between very strong masters than the mistake-filled draws? I know you are a very strong chess player so you probably know more about this than I. Do strong players purposely play to the end of dead-drawn positions if they know that with best play they can't win? Haven't you ever drawn a game in which you made good moves? A game in which no mistakes were made or at least in which the mistakes were small enough to overcome? I know there are many ways to win a chess game. Taking advantage of your opponents weak squares, bad piece placement, weak king posistion, material advantage, making a queen, etc, etc,... . Those are all ways to win a chess game. Sometimes you go straight at the king. blasting away your opponent's defenses with sacrifices to force mate. Other times , you take a more round about approach to get at the king: exploiting weak square, gaining material, cramping your opponent's pieces so they can't move effectively with out seriously weaking their position, getting a winning endgame that will eventually lead to queening a pawn that will eventually lead to mate. Even though their king is not under direct threat, they are at such a disadvantage that eventually it will be impossible to prevent mate. So, some people resign. They don't want to sit there for another 10 or 20 or how ever many moves it takes to have their king mated. How is that different from someone who resigns a game in shogi because they feel they have no hope to win? Sometimes pros games end when one pro simply felt that he had no hope in winning and resigns because it is pointless to play on. Even though his king wasn't under direct attack and mate was imminent and he probably could play on for another 10 or so more moves, he resigned because he knew he simply couldn't win. Mate was inevitable. The ultimate goal of chess is to checkmate your opponent's king. Looking in any beginners guide or rule book under or how a game is ended and I'm prety sure that it says something like "A game is ended when either one player is checkmated, resigns or a draw is agreed." I'm pretty sure that it doesn't say a game is over when a pawn is queened. Taking draws out of the equation,leaves with checkmate and resignation. And, resignation means that there is no hope of avoiding mate. My analogy may have been a stretch but I simply meant that the ultimate goal of shogi is not to promote a rook any more that the ultimate goal of chess is to promote a pawn. When you play shogi what do you try to do? You try tomate you opponent's king. When you play chess what do you try and do? You try to mate your opponent's king? Isn't that so? This just may be my way of looking at this so I'd be interested in hearing what other people think is the ultimate goal or object of each game? Bill Gaudry --- Larry Kaufman COMCAST NET> $B$+$i$N%a%C%;!<%8!' (B > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bogin" YAHOO CO JP> > To: TECHUNIX TECHNION AC IL> > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 9:20 PM > Subject: Re: Beginner's Lessons No.1, Getting Orientated: > Perspectives on > Shogi and Chess > > > > I think the comment you quote about the goals of chess and shogi > are way > > off and show of a lack of understanding about both games. > > > > I've played a lot of chess and I've lost a few games even > though I > had > > queened a pawn. It makes no difference how many queens you make in > chess, > > just as it makes no difference how many tokins you make in shogi. > If you > > get mated you lose. > > > I think this indicates that you are a much weaker chess > player > than you are a shogi player (please correct me if I am wrong). In > 99% of > chess games, if one player queens and the other doesn't immediately > queen or > mate, there is absolutely no point in continuing the game. In my > opinion, > if the rules of chess were changed to say that if either player > safely > queens a pawn he automatically wins, it would have almost no effect > on > chess, except in rare instances. This of course is not at all true > of > promoting a pawn in shogi. > > > In chess, people resign in position when a pawn is promoted > probably > > because they feel that they will eventually be mated. Quite > possibly a > > strong shogi player may also immeadiately resign immeadiately if > their > rook > > or rook or bishop were to be taken without leaving them any > compensation > at > > all. They feel that with best play they will be mated. Both games > are won, > > especially at high levels of play, due to a combination of small > mistakes > > that over time add up to make a position unteneable. > > Again, I don't agree. In shogi it is quite possible that the > first > player wins by force (since draws are so rare), and it is almost > certainly > true that any mistake usually leaves the player with a theoretically > lost > game (although the opponent will often counter-err and the advantage > changes). In chess, due to draws it does often take multiple errors > to lose > a game. > > > > The fact that shogi allows you to use captured pieces does add an > exciting > > dynamic that chess doesn't have, but it doesn't change the fact > that the > > games are won by taking advantage of your opponent's mistakes. That > is > > completely a war of attrition. You wait and wait for your opponent > to make > > an error and then you take advantage of it. > > > Of course, sometimes in either game that may happen, but more > typically > you make moves that will get or keep the advantage unless the > opponent > replies very precisely. Waiting is more common in chess, but usually > at > least one player can try to force things. > > > Beginners at shogi and chess may feel that you win by capturing the > most > > pieces, but a 1 dan should be well beyond that naive way of > thinking. > > Strong chess players, like strong shogi players go straight for the > king. > > Not true at all. Sometimes the position calls for an attack on > the > king, but more often play is based on weakening pawns or squares, > with the > goal of eventually winning a pawn and converting to a won endgame. > Very > often in chess neither king is ever under any threat at all, yet > someone may > win. > > > > They don't waste time queening pawns unless it actually helps them > > eventually mate their opponent. Since in chess, you can't use > captured > > pieces again the need to queen pawns to mate may be greater than > the need > > to promote pawns in shogi. But, queening a pawn is only one way to > get to > > mate. > > > > Saying that queening a pawn is the main goal of ches is like say > that > > promoting your rook is the main goal of shogi. They are only a > means to > the > > end. Checkmate is the first and foremost goal of both. > > > It's a poor analogy. Queening a pawn will almost certainly win > the > chess game, but promoting a rook in shogi may easily be offset by > some other > factor. > > > Bill Gaudry > > > Larry Kaufman, International Master of chess, 5 Dan in shogi > > --- "T.Rogalski" ACCESS-4-FREE COM> $B$+$i$N%a%C%;!<%8!' (B > > > The above article does not teach the basic fundamentals of shogi, > it > > > highlights the merits of shogi over chess from a chess player's > > > perspective; such as -- the goal of chess is to queen a pawn and > win > > > by attrition, while the goal of shogi is, first and foremost, to > > > checkmate the opponent's king. > > > > > > If you email me your postal address, I'll be happy to snail mail > you > > > a copy. You have to promise to make further copies and > distribute > > > them to others who show interest in shogi. I believe that the > > > article is important enough for someone to post on a webpage, but > > > that hasn't happened yet. > > > > > > In my opinion, the best shogi primer is John Fairbairn's "How to > Play > > > Shogi". It is 24 pages packed full of concentrated shogi > > > information. Ex. page 24 is a raw listing of dozens of shogi > > > proverbs -- very useful. > > > > > > Maybe another Shogi-L member would know if "How to Play Shogi" is > > > still available somewhere? > > > > > > Tim > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! BB is Broadband by Yahoo! > > http://bb.yahoo.co.jp/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! BB is Broadband by Yahoo! http://bb.yahoo.co.jp/