From: Larry Kaufman COMCAST NET> Date: 1 aug 2003 Subject: Re: Beginner's Lessons No.1, Getting Orientated: Perspectives on Shogi and Chess ----- Original Message ----- From: "bogin" YAHOO CO JP> To: TECHUNIX TECHNION AC IL> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 9:20 PM Subject: Re: Beginner's Lessons No.1, Getting Orientated: Perspectives on Shogi and Chess > I think the comment you quote about the goals of chess and shogi are way > off and show of a lack of understanding about both games. > > I've played a lot of chess and I've lost a few games even though I had > queened a pawn. It makes no difference how many queens you make in chess, > just as it makes no difference how many tokins you make in shogi. If you > get mated you lose. > I think this indicates that you are a much weaker chess player than you are a shogi player (please correct me if I am wrong). In 99% of chess games, if one player queens and the other doesn't immediately queen or mate, there is absolutely no point in continuing the game. In my opinion, if the rules of chess were changed to say that if either player safely queens a pawn he automatically wins, it would have almost no effect on chess, except in rare instances. This of course is not at all true of promoting a pawn in shogi. > In chess, people resign in position when a pawn is promoted probably > because they feel that they will eventually be mated. Quite possibly a > strong shogi player may also immeadiately resign immeadiately if their rook > or rook or bishop were to be taken without leaving them any compensation at > all. They feel that with best play they will be mated. Both games are won, > especially at high levels of play, due to a combination of small mistakes > that over time add up to make a position unteneable. Again, I don't agree. In shogi it is quite possible that the first player wins by force (since draws are so rare), and it is almost certainly true that any mistake usually leaves the player with a theoretically lost game (although the opponent will often counter-err and the advantage changes). In chess, due to draws it does often take multiple errors to lose a game. > > The fact that shogi allows you to use captured pieces does add an exciting > dynamic that chess doesn't have, but it doesn't change the fact that the > games are won by taking advantage of your opponent's mistakes. That is > completely a war of attrition. You wait and wait for your opponent to make > an error and then you take advantage of it. > Of course, sometimes in either game that may happen, but more typically you make moves that will get or keep the advantage unless the opponent replies very precisely. Waiting is more common in chess, but usually at least one player can try to force things. > Beginners at shogi and chess may feel that you win by capturing the most > pieces, but a 1 dan should be well beyond that naive way of thinking. > Strong chess players, like strong shogi players go straight for the king. Not true at all. Sometimes the position calls for an attack on the king, but more often play is based on weakening pawns or squares, with the goal of eventually winning a pawn and converting to a won endgame. Very often in chess neither king is ever under any threat at all, yet someone may win. > They don't waste time queening pawns unless it actually helps them > eventually mate their opponent. Since in chess, you can't use captured > pieces again the need to queen pawns to mate may be greater than the need > to promote pawns in shogi. But, queening a pawn is only one way to get to > mate. > > Saying that queening a pawn is the main goal of ches is like say that > promoting your rook is the main goal of shogi. They are only a means to the > end. Checkmate is the first and foremost goal of both. > It's a poor analogy. Queening a pawn will almost certainly win the chess game, but promoting a rook in shogi may easily be offset by some other factor. > Bill Gaudry > Larry Kaufman, International Master of chess, 5 Dan in shogi > --- "T.Rogalski" ACCESS-4-FREE COM> $B$+$i$N%a%C%;!<%8!' (B > > The above article does not teach the basic fundamentals of shogi, it > > highlights the merits of shogi over chess from a chess player's > > perspective; such as -- the goal of chess is to queen a pawn and win > > by attrition, while the goal of shogi is, first and foremost, to > > checkmate the opponent's king. > > > > If you email me your postal address, I'll be happy to snail mail you > > a copy. You have to promise to make further copies and distribute > > them to others who show interest in shogi. I believe that the > > article is important enough for someone to post on a webpage, but > > that hasn't happened yet. > > > > In my opinion, the best shogi primer is John Fairbairn's "How to Play > > Shogi". It is 24 pages packed full of concentrated shogi > > information. Ex. page 24 is a raw listing of dozens of shogi > > proverbs -- very useful. > > > > Maybe another Shogi-L member would know if "How to Play Shogi" is > > still available somewhere? > > > > Tim > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! BB is Broadband by Yahoo! > http://bb.yahoo.co.jp/