From: Astarte <astarte <at> CHELLO <dot> SE>
Date: 24 sep 2002
Subject: Re: THE HABU INTERVIEW

Thank you for a very interesting interview!

You seldom get a chance to look into the conceptual view of a shogi
professional.
I liked the reference to Masuda. It is nice to read about a historical
character in shogi.

A book about strong shogi players prominent in the shogi  history would be
something to look forward to.

/Christer Hartman

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Sams" <rjfs <at> PARKCITY <dot> NE <dot> JP>
To: <SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL>
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 5:47 AM
Subject: THE HABU INTERVIEW


> Dear All,
>
> I am a freelance translator (Japanese to English) living in Tokyo. I had
> some spare time this summer, so I translated an interview with Habu for
the
> Shogi Discussion List. Habu has been interviewed countless times, but this
> one seemed to me more interesting than most. I'd be grateful for feedback.
> Please let me know if you find any mistakes (missing words, etc.). I look
> forward to meeting some of you in Tokyo in October.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Richard Sams
>
>
>
> THE HABU INTERVIEW
>
> Yoshiharu Habu in conversation with Fumio Yamada, shogi journalist and
> broadcaster (April 2002)
>
>
> Yamada: I've watched you playing at the Shogi Renmei and in title matches,
> and we've exchanged a few words on these occasions, but it's quite some
time
> since I had the opportunity to talk with you at length. So I'd like to
start
> by asking you about your family life. You have two daughters, don't you?
Are
> you a good father?
>
> Habu: With all the title matches I have to play, I'm away from home for
> about a third of the year, and I'm also out quite a lot because of other
> commitments, so I sometimes have the feeling my children are growing up
> without my knowing it. They're already four and two, and I suppose they
see
> me as the father who is never home.
>
> Yamada: Do you ever take the family on trips?
>
> Habu: We very rarely go on holiday together, and even when we want to we
> seldom get the chance. I expect my daughters will soon be comparing me
with
> their friends' fathers and thinking they have a strange dad. But I hope
> they'll understand that's because I'm a shogi professional.
>
> Yamada: Do you intend to teach your daughters shogi?
>
> Habu: I will if they show an interest in it, but I'm not going to force
them
> to learn. It's up to them. In the shogi world there are very few cases of
> both parents and children becoming professionals, which I think shows what
a
> tough profession it is. So I doubt very much whether that will happen in
our
> family.
>
> Yamada: Do you ever do the housework?
>
> Habu: I don't, or rather I can't. I suppose that's the same thing.
(Laughs)
> When I was single, I always used to eat out.
>
> Yamada: Is there anything you don't or can't eat?
>
> Habu: Apart from really outlandish things, I can eat anything. Recently
I've
> been eating noodles a lot.
>
> Yamada: What about alcoholic drinks? Do you often go for a drink in the
> evening?
>
> Habu: I don't drink at all at home, and these days I don't seem to have so
> many opportunities to drink out either. When I do, it tends to be with
other
> shogi professionals or with writers. I usually prefer to drink wine or
sake.
> Many of the shogi pros like drinking and they drink for a long time. After
> matches at the Shogi Renmei, if I wasn't driving, I would often drink at a
> bar in Sendagaya for two or three hours.
>
> Yamada: Being game players, shogi pros seem to like gambling, and many of
> them play mahjong or bet on horses. What about you?
>
> Habu: I don't think I'm the gambling type, but anyway I just don't do it.
If
> I did, I'd regret it if I lost and if I won I'd wish I'd used that luck on
> shogi rather than the horses! So I prefer not to gamble.
>
> Yamada: You own a car, don't you? Have you been driving much lately?
>
> Habu: At one time I used to drive to the Shogi Kaikan or to title matches
if
> they were nearby, but these days I don't drive at all.
>
> Yamada: Yes, driving can actually be quite stressful and tiring. When I'm
> covering a title match, I always feel a little concerned when I hear that
> one of the players has driven to the venue. I'd be happier if they came by
> train.
>
> Habu: These days I nearly always use the train. When I wear a suit I'm not
> so conspicuous, so I rarely get people staring at me. I think that's
because
> people have such a strong image of us wearing Japanese-style clothes.
>
> Yamada: More and more shogi pros seem to be using mobile phones these
days.
> Do you have one?
>
> Habu: I don't really need one. But when the easy-to-use "next generation"
> phones come out, I might get one.
>
> Yamada: As shogi players spend a lot of time sitting during games, they
tend
> not to get enough exercise. Do you do anything special to keep fit?
>
> Habu: I occasionally go to a local sports club and swim. I also try to
make
> sure I get enough sleep. And if I have some free time, I try to think of
> something other than shogi, or just switch off altogether.
>
>
>
> "I've Never Considered Giving Up Shogi"
>
> Yamada: I'd like to talk a little about your boyhood. You learned how to
> play shogi in your 4th year at elementary school, when you were six.
>
> Habu: Yes, a friend in the same class who lived nearby taught me.
> It was just one of the many games we played. We started with "mawari
shogi"
> and "yamakuzushi,"* then advanced to shogi proper. At first I was around
the
> same strength as my classmates, but then I got stronger and started going
to
> a shogi club so I could play against adults.
>
> * Mawarishogi: The players race their golds around the shogi board from
the
> outside to the center, throwing dice to decide the number of squares they
> move.
> Yamakuzushi: The pieces are spilled onto the shogi board from the box,
> forming a "mountain." The players have to move each piece from the
mountain
> to the edge of the board with their forefinger without making a noise. A
> player who makes a noise must leave the game.
>
> Yamada: When did you first think about becoming a professional player?
>
> Habu: Well, I was still just a kid then. I had the vague feeling I wanted
to
> continue with shogi, and while I wasn't particularly thinking of becoming
a
> professional player I quite naturally became a pupil of Tatsuya Futakami
> (9-dan, currently Chairman of the Japan Shogi Federation) at the age of
12.
> But it wasn't like I made up my mind to do this while I was an elementary
> school student. Many of the other kids who played at that time in the
shogi
> tournaments held at department stores in the prefectures around Tokyo are
> now professionals. They were all very strong. I've known people like
Manabu
> Senzaki since my second year at elementary school. That's getting on for
25
> years now.
>
> Yamada: So you didn't have much time just to enjoy yourself at junior high
> and high school.
>
> Habu: Not really. From the age of 12 to my early twenties was my period of
> training, so I couldn't really enjoy a normal adolescence. But then if you
> don't make this sacrifice you can't become a shogi professional. I became
> 4-dan in my 3rd year at junior high school (age 14), but I did
occasionally
> wonder why I was always working while my fellow pupils were playing.
>
> Yamada: I have the impression you've never had any setbacks in your shogi
> career. Have you gone through any hard times?
>
> Habu: Well, I suppose it's always tough when a game doesn't go the way you
> plan. But since this is the path I chose, you can't really call that
> hardship. I've never considered giving up shogi, but I've sometimes hated
> myself when I made a mistake. Still, you don't have any excuses -
everything
> in shogi is your own responsibility. There's no element of chance, so you
> have to face reality. You could say it's good that it's so clear-cut, but
> this can also be hard.
>
> Yamada: Are you superstitious regarding your games? Do you believe in
omens,
> for instance?
>
> Habu: If you start thinking that way, there's no end to it, so I tend not
to
> believe in omens. It's rather the people around me who seem to consider
> these things.
>
> Yamada: Yes, when the match organizers are deciding on the venue, I'm sure
> they occasionally think "Habu lost last time at this venue, so he might
not
> like it." But these days the decision is not made by the organizers
alone -
> they have to consider the views of the sponsors, local cities and towns,
and
> so on.
>
>
>
> "Masuda's Shogi was Very Close to Current Thinking"
>
> Yamada: Are there any players from the past who you particularly like or
> respect? Do you think these players could perform well in today's shogi
> world?
>
> Habu: I think Amano Soho (active in the mid-19th century) had an
incredible
> feeling for the opening. As Amano did not belong to the official shogi
> organization, he only achieved a ranking of 7-dan, but his real strength
was
> said to be 10- or 11-dan, and he was known as "Kisei Soho."
>     But considering the advances we've seen in opening research, I don't
> think he could compete with today's professionals. Among more recent
> players, I think Kozo Masuda was outstanding (4th "Actual Strength"
Meijin;
> retired in 1979, died in 1991). Masuda was active from the mid-1940s to
the
> mid-1960s, but his understanding of the game was already very close to
> current thinking. I'm always very struck by this when I play through his
> games.
>
> Yamada: Masuda was very famous for his originality in the opening and
> discovered many new moves and strategies. Can you mention one game of
> Masuda's that particularly impressed you?
>
> Habu: Yes, his game in September 1953 against Soetsu Honma (8-dan, then
> 7-dan; died in 1981) in which he first played his "Spearing the Sparrow"
> (suzumezashi) strategy as White. He brought his lance, knight, bishop and
> rook to bear on Black's 9th file and broke through very quickly. This was
an
> approach that had never been seen before, and it's an excellent strategy
> that still hasn't been refuted.
>
> Yamada: In later years, Honma used to say, "When Masuda moved his lance up
> and put his rook behind it, I thought he was taking the piss and got quite
> upset. But then won brilliantly and I was amazed by the stuff he showed me
> after the game. Masuda really was a genius in the opening." (quoted from
The
> Kozo Masuda Story by Higashi Kohei)
>
> Habu: Yes, Honma must have been completely taken aback by that new
strategy.
>
> Yamada: In his autobiography Masuda wrote about the "Spearing the Sparrow"
> variation: "I saw an amateur play it on a park bench and added my own
> refinements."
>
> Habu: By the time I became a professional, Masuda had already retired, so
> unfortunately I never had the chance to play him.
>
> Yamada: But you did play Go with him, didn't you?
>
> Habu: Yes. After he retired Masuda didn't come to the Shogi Renmei any
more.
> Two or three years before he died, Yonenaga (Kunio Yonenaga, Lifetime
Kisei)
> told me and some other young players that we should meet Masuda in person,
> so he took us to his house. He welcomed us warmly and played several games
> of Go with us. He beat me with a handicap of 8 stones!
>
> Yamada: Masuda loved giving weak opponents handicaps of many stones.
Sipping
> his shochu (distilled liquor) as he played, he teased his opponents,
calling
> them "patzers" and so on. This was his hobby. He couldn't tease strong
> opponents, so he wouldn't play against them. I myself played a couple of
> games with him at the Shogi Renmei year-end tournament and he talked
> non-stop through both. And what he said was quite cutting, so it's not
such
> a pleasant memory! But although he seemed easygoing he was quite
> highly-strung. He will be remembered as a one-off, the kind of shogi
> professional we're very unlikely to see again.
>     Who is the player who has influenced you the most?
>
> Habu: It would have to be Tanigawa (Koji Tanigawa, Oi ). Soon after I
> entered the Shoreikai (the official organization for training professional
> shogi players) when I was 12, Tanigawa became the youngest ever Meijin at
> the age of 21. That made a very deep impression on me. And now we've
played
> more than 120 games. After Tanigawa comes Sato (Yasumitsu Sato, Osho).
I've
> played 72 games against Sato, which just goes to show much Tanigawa and I
> have played each other.
>
> Yamada: It was once said that you spent more time with Tanigawa than with
> your wife!
>
> Habu: I know. Under the two-day title match system, the players spend two
> whole days sitting opposite each other, and we also travel and eat
together.
> So it's no exaggeration to say that. In terms of shogi, I've learned a lot
> from Tanigawa's amazing conceptual ability, his sense of speed, his
> brilliant endgame finishes, and his decisiveness.
>
> Yamada: Is there one game of Tanigawa's that particularly impressed you?
>
> Habu: Yes, his game with Nakahara in the play-off to decide the Meijin
> challenger in 1983, particularly his moves P-7e and S-7c.
>
> Yamada: But in 1983 you were still in the Shoreikai, only 1-kyu (Shoreikai
> ranking), and 12 years old. Tanigawa was 20, playing brilliantly, and on
the
> verge of becoming Meijin. For you, Tanigawa represented the ultimate goal
> and you must have studied all his games assiduously. I remember that when
> Tanigawa played P-7e in that typical Yagura middlegame, the players in the
> analysis room exclaimed in astonishment, "This move is impossible!" Since
> White is planning to play S-7e anyway, it just seemed to help him. But
that
> was a superficial assessment: in terms of whole-board perception it was a
> great move reflecting Tanigawa's deep understanding of the position. And
> S-7c was the move that decided the game in his favor.
>
> Habu: With this game, Tanigawa gained the right to challenge the Meijin,
> Hifumi Kato. He went on to win this match 4-2, becoming the youngest ever
> Meijin in shogi history. For me at that time, Tanigawa was a distant,
> god-like figure. I followed the match with feelings close to adoration.
>
>
>
> The Fujii System: The First 20 Moves are Crucial
>
> Yamada: Shogi openings have been quite thoroughly researched. Do you think
> there are still possibilities for the appearance of a completely new
> strategy?
>
> Habu: Well, just when we thought we'd reached the limit and no new
strategy
> could emerge, we got the Fujii System and the R-8e variation of the Side
> Pawn (Yokofudori). Even so, I don't think we're going to see a new
strategy
> that fundamentally changes the way shogi has come to be played. But we
will
> always have partially new strategies that supplement conventional theory.
>
> Yamada: In your own matches with Taku Fujii 9-dan, you successfully
defended
> the Oza Title in 2000, then Fujii beat you to keep the Ryuo Title in the
> same year, and last year you won the Ryuo. What do you think of the Fujii
> System?
>
> Habu: The Fujii System is a very good strategy which is still being
> developed. It is a flexible system that does not adopt a fixed formation,
> but can be adapted according to how the opponent responds. It's
essentially
> a very practical strategy that's been refined and perfected. Before the
> Fujii System, the first 20 moves or so in ranging rook openings used to be
> simple and straightforward, which is why it was popular among amateurs as
> well as professionals. But the first 20 moves of the Fujii System are
really
> crucial. There's no way of taking the System by storm in the opening, so
you
> just have to adopt a formation that you feel comfortable with and achieve
a
> position with even chances. Another difficulty posed by the Fujii System
is
> its broad front - it is a very comprehensive strategy. But I should stress
> that Fujii's strength does not lie in his system alone; his shogi has many
> other strengths as well.
>
> Yamada: Among the younger players, is there anyone in particular you think
> we should watch out for?
>
> Habu: There are a lot of strong players now in their twenties. All of them
> have the potential to go right to the top.
>
> Yamada: If you played the Habu of 10 years ago, what would be the result?
> Perhaps this is a rude question, but do you think you still have room to
> improve technically? Have you yet to reach your peak or have you passed
it?
>
> Habu: I'm confident that I could win against the player I was 10 years
ago,
> both at fast and slow time limits. But I think shogi players reach their
> peak in their thirties.
>
> Yamada: I know you own a personal computer. What do you use it for?
>
> Habu: I use it mainly for searching game scores, but also for the Internet
> and e-mail. These days the strength of shogi-playing software is about
> amateur 3-dan or 4-dan, but they can already analyze concrete variations
> better than professionals. In the future, we may be taking PCs to shogi
> match venues and using them to analyze the game in a separate room, which
> may make it necessary to draw up new rules. We may also have professional
> games played in public over the Internet.
>
> Yamada: In recent years shogi has been getting very popular overseas,
> particularly in China. At the end of March last year, the Shogi Building
and
> Shogi Salon were opened in Shanghai. I also hear that you were involved in
> the promotion of the International Society for the Popularization of Shogi
> (ISPS).
>
> Habu: China has such a huge population that whenever something receives
the
> support of a city or the national government, thousands of people take
part.
> But because each country or region has its own version of shogi - western
> chess, Chinese chess, Korean chess, Thai chess and so on - I don't think
> we're going to see any sudden explosion of popularity of shogi overseas.
>
> Yamada: What do you think about the future possibility of a foreign shogi
> professional? Last year and the year before last, a first-year junior high
> school student from China took the Shoreikai entrance examination. Both
> failed by just one win in the practical play section, but they were very
> close to the required standard.
>
> Habu: If someone from overseas did pass, they'd face various problems such
> as language difficulties, where and how to live, school and so on. We
first
> need to prepare the right environment for accepting people from overseas.
> But I think this is a definite trend, and it's only a matter of time
before
> we have a foreign shogi professional - certainly within the next 15 years.
>
> Yamada: I'd like to see shogi promoted not just in China but also in
Europe
> and the United States.
>
> Habu: There is a limit to what the Shogi Federation can do to promote
shogi,
> so I think we need the active support of shogi fans overseas.
>
> Yamada: By the way, how do you feel about smoking? The Go Associatio has
> completely banned in its facilities, but the Shogi Federation has not yet
> made such a regulation.
>
> Habu: I don't smoke myself, but I think banning of smoking has gone a
little
> too far, so I'm content with the current situation.
>
> Yamada: You always give the impression of being very cool-headed. Don't
you
> ever get cross or down when you lose a game of shogi, or suffer from
> accumulated stress? If so, how do you deal with it?
>
> Habu: Of course it's not a pleasant feeling when you realize you're going
to
> lose. I sometimes get stressed when I'm tired from being too busy. At
those
> times, I don't do anything more than relax over a cup of tea or something.
>
> Yamada: You are often asked for your autograph or to write a few
characters
> in calligraphy. You no doubt write various things on these occasions, but
> what have been your favorite characters recently?
>
> Habu: Recently I have been writing the characters "rei-ro," which I took
> from the phrase "hachimenreiro," meaning "perfect serenity." The origin of
> this phrase is the feeling of being on top of a high mountain on a clear
day
> and looking in all directions at the beautiful scene stretching out below
> you.
>
>
>
> The Key Game: Habu-Tanigawa, 4th Game, 3rd Ryuo Title Match
>
> Yamada: You've already played several hundred games as a shogi
professional.
> Of all of these, which was the most memorable for you?
>
> Habu: If I had to choose just one, it would be the 4th game in the 7-game
> 3rd Ryuo Title Match against Tanigawa.
>
> Yamada: Ah yes, that was played at the Saibokukan Hotel in Nagano in
> November 1990. At the time, you held the Ryuo and Tanigawa, the
challenger,
> held the Oi and Oza titles. The previous year, at the age of 19, you had
won
> the Ryuo title from Akira Shima in a very close match that ended 4-3 in
your
> favor. The match against Tanigawa the following year was your first title
> defense and your opponent, with two titles to his name, was viewed as the
> strongest player at that time. Against this strong challenger, you lost
the
> first three games. All of these games were hard fought, but Tanigawa
seemed
> to see just a bit further in the crucial positions. So when the 4th game
> started, the general feeling was that you had not quite reached Tanigawa's
> level. As one of the reporters covering the match, I watched it from
> beginning to end and I'll never forget it.
>
> Habu: Having lost three games in a row, I was of course very keen to get
one
> back somehow or other.
>
> Yamada: As newspaper reporters, we also didn't want this 7-game match to
end
> after only 4 games. They were very much looking forward to watching it at
> the venues for the 5th and 6th games, so we all wanted a close match. At
any
> rate, we hoped you could win at least one game!
>
> Habu: But in that 4th game too, I was in trouble and had a lost position
at
> one point, but Tanigawa rushed his final attack and the endgame become
> unclear. Then it was a question of whether or not I could threaten his
king
> with mate. In the limited time remaining, as I was desperately searching
for
> the win, the move B-2b occurred to me. The game went to 203 moves, which
is
> still the longest game in all the title matches I've played. After winning
> this game, I lost the 5th game and with it the Ryuo crown. But in that 4th
> game I really gave it everything and it made me keenly aware of Tanigawa's
> extraordinary conceptual powers and decisiveness. For all these reasons,
it
> was a key game for me.
>
> Yamada: At the start of the 21st century, what goals do you have?
>
> Habu: It may sound rather abstract, but I would just like to always have
the
> desire to improve and advance further. Kato (Hifumi Kato, 9-dan) remained
in
> Group A until he was 61 years old. I too would like to be a shogi player
of
> real strength who can carry on for a long time.
>
> Yamada: Thank you for sparing so much of your precious time.
>
> (translated by Richard Sams)
>
>
>