From: bogin YAHOO CO JP> Date: 29 oct 2002 Subject: Re: Congratulations > It's not quite as hard to earn 5 Dan in a Japanese club > (such as > Osaka Shogi Federation branch, where I've played often in the past) > as you > might think. It's true that you must score 18-2 as a 4 dan, but when > you > play lower-ranked players, the handicap is too small. Against a 3 > Dan you > only concede playing first, and against a 2 Dan only a lance, a very > small > handicap among amateurs. So if you are really of 5 Dan strength, > meaning > that you score about 3 out of 4 against 4 Dans, you will probably > earn the > rank relatively quickly if you play at the club several times a week. > In my own case, I originally earned the 5 Dan rank in the same > way as > Gert, by winning an international shogi tournament (in the mid-80s, > in Los > Angeles) in which the rank was automatically awarded to the winner. > I felt > slightly embarrassed, because I knew that it was basically a > promotional > tool to award the rank to a Westerner. For a Japanese to earn 5 Dan > in a > tournament, he would have had to win a much stronger event than the > ones > that Gert or I won. > So I determined to raise my level of play to the point where I > felt > that I could play as 5 Dan in Japan and score well enough. I > eventually did > play at that rank at both the Tokyo and Osaka Shogi Federation > branches, and > scored perhaps 70%, on one occasion winning the Osaka weekly handicap > tournament. Only then did I feel that I had truly earned the rank. > Gert is a very strong shogi player, perhaps the strongest in > Europe > (though that remains to be proven), and I hope and expect that he too > will > feel motivated to prove himself worthy of the high honor the Japanese > Shogi > Federation has bestowed on him. Now that we have an effective > rating/ranking system in the West, he no longer needs to go to Japan > to do > this, but can do so by dominating the European shogi scene in the > next > couple years. If he can consistently score about 3 out of 4 against > the 4 > Dan players in Europe, he will have justified his rank. > By the way, it is even possible to earn 6 Dan at the Tokyo and > Osaka > branches of the Shogi Federation. I made some efforts in this > direction > years ago, and while the strength of my play and the length of my > stays in > Japan were both insufficient for the task, I believe that if I > actually > lived in Japan I would have been able to qualify eventually. But > since 6 > Dan is usually reserved for national champions, earning the rank in > club > play might just be an embarrassment! > > Larry Kaufman Mr. Kaufman, Again, sorry. No offense was intended. I'm sure that there is little statistical difference between the Western and Japanese Shogi and there relative ranks. The level of play is probably pretty much the same throughout the world. 99% of my shogi experience has been at Japanese clubs and I haven't really had the chance to play many western players. So, I guess my perception is a little bit jaded. But, I'm probably not the only one that has made that mistake. You even wrote yourself that perhaps the reason that there were no strong Japanese Nationals playing in this past Shogi Forum was probably because the JSF wanted a foreigner to win. Unfortunately, I think you're probably pretty close to the truth. Up to now, as far as I know, of all the foreigners invited to participate in the Japanese Amateur Ryu-O or other major Amateur tournaments only 1, Reijer Grimbergen, has managed to win a game. So, despite all of the evidence to the contrary this way of thinking is still pretty common. Perhaps Mr. Schnider's victory and the quality of his play will go a long way in changing that. I think anyone can achieve such a high dan is really strong. Like you said, even among shogi club there is a general difference in playing strength and the Tokyo and Osaka branches of the JSF are not the strongest in Japan by far. or course there are much stronger ones. Some clubs even have a different handicap set up than the one used in Osaka. For example, the Awaji club in Kobe completely skips the Lance handicap and uses starts with the Bishop. In any case for me, going 45-6 is pretty hard. If by " weaker" opposition you mean lower ranked than of course you you'll play some "weaker" guys. But, I don't necessarily think that "lower" means "weaker". At Osaka and other clubs, high dan players almost never get paired down too much. Unless, it's a slow day and there are no players, move or lance is probably the biggest handicap you'll see among the high dans. They just don't do it that way. They don't pair 5 dans with 1 or 2 dans unless and they don't even like pairing them with 3 dans. I have asked about the people running this and that's the impression I got. And, though it's a little harder to do, they also try to pair players with similar records so you don't get too many cases of 0-5 playing against 5-0. It gets especially more difficult as you get into the promotion red zone. Quite a few times when I've been only one win away I have drawn a higher ranked player with the same record. So, the games don't become easier. Winning a handicap tournament, like you did is really quite an accomplishment. Those tournaments are single elimination and the time limit is 30 minutes and no byo yomi. So, you must really be truly strong in order to be able to win it. So, I wasn't implying that you didn't deserve you're rank. You are extremely strong and your results more than back up your rank. I wasn't trying to imply that you, Mr. Schnider or anyone has to justify their rank. I'd be more than happy to achieve a 6dan rank at the club level. $B!! (BI guess I was just trying to point out the differences in the two promotion systems. I wasn't trying to be critical. I apologize if it came off that way. By the way, in order to make 6dan, even at the relatively weak JSF Osaka Shogi Club, you'd only need to go 18-0 or 26-2. Despite all of the strong players who regularly play there, since 12/2001 there have only been 4 people who have been promoted to 6dan from 5dan. They all had 26-2 records. During the same period, only 8 people have been promoted to 5dan. Of the 5 dan group only 3 were able to go 13-0. So, I don't think it would be embarrassing to achieve such a high dan ranking at the club level. It's not like there giving them out like candy. Once again sorry for any misunderstanding. Bill Gaudry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! BB is Broadband by Yahoo! http://bb.yahoo.co.jp/