From: bogin YAHOO CO JP> Date: 28 oct 2002 Subject: Re: Elo system This is a difficult problem and I don't know if there ever will be a solution found that satisfies everyone. Who's rating system would you use? While an ELO-type numerical system is used by the Japanese Amateur Shogi Association, it is used in a completely different way than in the west. In fact, almost every shogi clubs that I have ever been to use a form of the dan/kyu system in making their pairings. Numerical ratings aren't even considered at all. And, when it comes to being promoted most clubs simply go by performance over a certain period of time rather than performances based on numerical ratings. And, I don't think it would be good to use the European standard as it is. Like the USCF ratings and FIDE ratings in chess, I just think the level of play here in Japan on average is higher so that even though the numerical ratings between European and Japanese players may be the same, the actual difference in strength may be much higher. I think this is especially true at the low dan/kyu level. The level of competition and the pool of players is just greater. Perhaps the best way to do it would be like they do at Yahoo! Games. Everyone starts at the same point (1200) and then you progress from there. Eventually, after enough games have been played the stronger players would rise to the top. Of course, various time controls make things a little more complicated but at least this way progress seems to be more easily measured. I, myself, believe that instead of starting at the top that it's better to work one's way up from the bottom. Stronger players will only naturally pass through the lower ranks rather quickly and by time they get through the provisional stage they should be in a good position to gauge their relative strength with respect to the other players on that particular site. But, that is just my way of doing it. Different people may have different ideas. By there very nature Internet Shogi Clubs like Shogi Club 24(Shogi Dojo) rely on an honor system. So, it is highly possible that some people do purposely claim a lower rating on purpose. But, if you think about it there is really know benefit in doing this. If you're a 5 dan and you claim to be a 10kyu, then, unless you are constantly throwing games, you'll shoot up towards your true level rather quickly. I think that are really very few people on those sites that intentionally try to sandbag. There's just no point to it. On the other hand, I think that the overestimation of ratings is probably much more common. Some people simply think that they are better than the really are. Somebody says that there of dan strength and so that's one they register as at clubs like Shogi 24. If you look hard enough you can find a lot of provisional dans with winning percentages less than 30%. While it might not always be the case, I think this is probably a good indication of some one biting off more than they can chew. The level of competition on Shogi 24 is really high. Perhaps it is higher than your average Shogi Club. That only makes sense because the potential pool of players is virtually borderless. The moderator/ web-master of Shogi 24, Mr. Kumei, states that the Shogi 24 ratings are probably a good 2-3dan/kyu higher than those of the average club. I'm not sure how much of this is true and how much of this is simply Japanese "tatemae". Of course, just as in chess no two "A" players are the same , no two shogi 1dans are the same as well. But, regardless of dan/kyu, the level of play is still extremely strong and I think it is a pretty good indicator of one's shogi strength. It's not perfect and there are various exceptions but it's pretty close. Meaning no offense to any New Yorkers out there but with respect to Shogi Club 24; if you can make it there then you can make it anywhere. Therefore, while it's statistically improbable, it's not surprising that a person can lose to an player 700 points or so lower. At 1 minute shogi even the best players can make mistakes and even the weakest players can play above their rank. It comes back to something that I learned from chess. It's better to focus the board rather than the opponents rating. If you focus on finding the best move regardless of your opponents rating then you will probably win more than you lose. Shogi 24 has a feature that prevents people from challenging player rated 400 or points lower than themselves. You really gain nothing from beating someone that far below you. So, for those you that partake that kind of bottom-feeding looking for a quick kill (including myself sometimes) it's kind of "buyer beware". If you do it enough you're eventually going to get burned by a weaker player and drop a lot of points. You can't really complain about them beating you when it was you that went looking for them in the first place. Like Mr. Kaufman says, you can always decline any challenge you receive. Once you push that accept button then you've got no one to blame but yourself. If you're really worried about protecting your rating than you should stay away from the lower depths and play up instead. You have much more to gain that way. Well, sorry for the long-winded e-mail. Just my 3 cents worth. Bill Gaudry --- Larry Kaufman COMCAST NET> $B$+$i$N%a%C%;!<%8!' (B > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Randy Andrews" JUNO COM> > To: TECHUNIX TECHNION AC IL> > Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 3:05 PM > Subject: Re: Elo system > > > > It's too bad the Shogi Dojo rating system is flawed by allowing new > > players to provide their own first rating. > > It's very frustrating to play a playe 700 points below me > who > > wipes me off the board. Why don't they > > use a rating system like ICC and FICS use? > > > I agree. Until they do, you can refuse to play anyone with a > "?" after > their rating, implying less than 30 games played. > > Larry Kaufman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! BB is Broadband by Yahoo! http://bb.yahoo.co.jp/