From: Chiaki Ito MAIL COM> Date: 14 nov 2002 Subject: Re: The value of pieces to Shogi If you talk about the value of pieces in Shogi, it is better to introduce other factors such as the solidarity of castle and efficiency of pieces. After all, you need to know the value of pieces because you want to make a judgment on the situation. In some cases in Shogi, it is better to have nothing there than to have a piece, a knight with its head unprotected for instance, because it is so vulnerable sitting there just to be exchanged for a less valued piece like a pawn. This, I found, is not true in Chess. Chiaki ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Kaufman" COMCAST NET> To: TECHUNIX TECHNION AC IL> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 2:56 PM Subject: Re: The value of pieces to Shogi > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Sloan" ISHIPRESS COM> > To: TECHUNIX TECHNION AC IL> > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:38 PM > Subject: Re: The value of pieces to Shogi > > > > At 05:23 PM 11/14/2002 -0500, Larry Kaufman wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Pierre Morteux To: > > >SHOGI-L TECHUNIX TECHNION AC IL Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 > 3:51 > > > PM Subject: The value of pieces to Shogi > > > > > > > > >So to Chess, if we take the pawn = 1 as reference, we have : > > > > > > - pawn = 1 > > > - Bishop = 3,5 > > > - Knight = 3,5 > > > - Rook = 5 > > > - Queen = 10 > > > > > >To shogi, can make the same assessment? > > > > > > > > > Pierre Morteux I believe it is the most > > >accurate simple table possible. Pawn = 1 Lance = 4 > > > Knight = 5 Silver = 7 Gold = 8 Bishop = 11 > > > Rook = 13 As for promoted bishop or rook, the > > >concensus seems to be to add 3 points, making 14 or 16 for those > pieces. > > > In the endgame, normal values don't mean much; in particular > > >generals (especially golds) in hand are good for mating. Larry > > >Kaufman, amateur 5 Dan > > > > > > Since Larry Kaufman is a vastly stronger player than I am, I would > normally > > defer to his opinion, but in this case I cannot. > > > > I believe that the above table of values where Pawn=1 and Lance=4 and so > on > > was created just to satisfy requests by Western chess players for a table > > of such values. I do not believe that amateur or professional players of > > shogi in Japan ever use such values. > > > > For example, in chess, if one player has a rook and the opponent has a > > knight and three pawns, all chess players will agree that the player with > a > > kinght and three pawns is a pawn ahead. > > > > However, in shogi, nothing like this will ever happen. > > > > Sam Sloan > > Sorry to dispute you Sam, but in shogi it is quite normal to evaluate > positions in a manner similar to the example you quoted. Whenever > unbalanced exchanges occur, the material balance is evaluated by a scale > such as the one I gave. Of course pros don't have to use the numbers; they > immediately know the net result of any material imbalance, just as in chess > grandmasters don't have to do math to know that R+B+N is better than Q+P. > Once material is evaluated, then one considers king safety, pieces in hand, > proximity of pieces to kings, etc. etc. The only real difference between > chess and shogi with regard to material values is that in shogi, it is > vastly easier to have compensation for material, so it seems that material > is less important. But in reality it's just that positional values are much > larger relative to material ones in shogi; this in no way lessens the > importance of knowing the correct material balance, assuming we are not > talking about mating situations. > As for the values being created for westerners, why do I regularly find > them in books written 100% in Japanese? These books probably don't sell > more than a couple dozen copies to westerners. > > Larry Kaufman