From: Larry Kaufman <lkaufman <at> COMCAST <dot> NET>
Date: 14 nov 2002
Subject: Re: The value of pieces to Shogi

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Sloan" <sloan <at> ISHIPRESS <dot> COM>
To: <SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: The value of pieces to Shogi


> At 05:23 PM 11/14/2002 -0500, Larry Kaufman wrote:
> >        ----- Original Message -----    From:   Pierre Morteux      To:
> >SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL      Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002
3:51
> >  PM   Subject: The value of pieces to   Shogi
> >
> >
> >So to Chess, if we take the pawn = 1 as reference, we have :
> >
> >        - pawn =   1
> >        - Bishop =   3,5
> >        - Knight =   3,5
> >        - Rook =   5
> >        - Queen = 10
> >
> >To   shogi, can make the same   assessment?
> >
> >
> >              Pierre Morteux               I believe it is the most
> >accurate simple table   possible.        Pawn =   1        Lance =   4
> >  Knight =   5        Silver =   7        Gold =   8        Bishop =   11
> >     Rook =   13                As for promoted   bishop or rook, the
> >concensus seems to be to add 3 points, making 14 or 16 for   those
pieces.
> >        In the endgame, normal values don't mean much; in particular
> >generals (especially golds) in hand are good for mating.            Larry
> >Kaufman,   amateur 5 Dan
>
>
> Since Larry Kaufman is a vastly stronger player than I am, I would
normally
> defer to his opinion, but in this case I cannot.
>
> I believe that the above table of values where Pawn=1 and Lance=4 and so
on
> was created just to satisfy requests by Western chess players for a table
> of such values. I do not believe that amateur or professional players of
> shogi in Japan ever use such values.
>
> For example, in chess, if one player has a rook and the opponent has a
> knight and three pawns, all chess players will agree that the player with
a
> kinght and three pawns is a pawn ahead.
>
> However, in shogi, nothing like this will ever happen.
>
> Sam Sloan

     Sorry to dispute you Sam, but in shogi it is quite normal to evaluate
positions in a manner similar to the example you quoted.  Whenever
unbalanced exchanges occur, the material balance is evaluated by a scale
such as the one I gave.  Of course pros don't have to use the numbers; they
immediately know the net result of any material imbalance, just as in chess
grandmasters don't have to do math to know that R+B+N is better than Q+P.
Once material is evaluated, then one considers king safety, pieces in hand,
proximity of pieces to kings, etc. etc.  The only real difference between
chess and shogi with regard to material values is that in shogi, it is
vastly easier to have compensation for material, so it seems that material
is less important.  But in reality it's just that positional values are much
larger relative to material ones in shogi; this in no way lessens the
importance of knowing the correct material balance, assuming we are not
talking about mating situations.
     As for the values being created for westerners, why do I regularly find
them in books written 100% in Japanese?  These books probably don't sell
more than a couple dozen copies to westerners.

     Larry Kaufman