From: bogin YAHOO CO JP> Date: 14 nov 2002 Subject: Re: Is joseki really so importent? This has been a really interesting discussion on the value of "Joseki". I think Reijer Grimbergen mentioned hit the nail on the head a while back. The key is not just to memorize the move order or positions of basic Joseki but the basic ideas and themes behind such Joseki. Simply memorizing the book may simply get you a few moves into the game but that's about all. So, for a beginner, understanding at least the basic castles and just the move order can be quite helpful. But, as one starts to play stronger, and stronger players more is required than just simply memorizing the moves. Most chess players have known someone who simply memorized some opening books and hoped for the best. As long as their opponent follows the book line then everything is OK. But, the minute their opponent varies and takes them "out of book" they lose their way and fall into trouble. I think that due to the fact that shogi allows the use of captured pieces that opening is much less static than in chess. Drops may allow you to correct a bad shape but they also can give your opponent an unexpected attack. Shogi openings can be very tricky. Top players will often try a more flexible approach than simply playing the straight book line. Instead of committing themselves to early to a certain set up they may wait to see what their opponent does. Eventually, the games move into standard lines but in somewhat of a roundabout way. However, there could be an instance where playing a relatively standard-looking move or the "book move" could led to an disadvantageous position. This even happens to pros. You'll often hear the terms "sakusen make" and "sashi yasui" during the commentary of a pro game. Simply put, one player had a better understanding of a position than his opponent. Even though, his opponent didn't make any obvious mistakes (ie:losing material) he was able to get a more comfortable position. This doesn't have to be losing but it can mean trying to play from a uncomfortable position for quite a while. So, obviously, simply "playing book" moves with understanding why can often lead to trouble. So, it would appear that completely ignoring the Joseki and playing by feel would be better? Despite what they claim, I think that players who play this way aren't really ignoring Joseki at all. More likely, they have played a position so many times that their understanding of the Joseki is much more than simply knowing the moves. But, over time, new moves are discovered and evaluations change. Old ideas are revived and other ones are refuted. Trying to work through all of the variations and sub variations yourself can indeed be satisfying but it can cause you expend a lot of energy and time. Especially, in a tournaments, this lost energy can be the difference between winning and losing. There are so many tesuji out there and being able to recognize them and understand them will certainly improve your play. But, always playing from bad position and hoping that you can outlast your opponent will eventually will catch up with you. Against weaker players you very well may get a second chance, but against stronger players you will more than likely lose more than you win. Stronger players know the new theory and they will make you pay for your lack of knowledge. So, given that lack of English language shogi books and materials out there probably one of the best ways to increase one's opening knowledge is to play over the pro games on Reijer Grimbergen's shogi page. The games are annotated and the explanations are really helpful. I learned so much more from playing over those games that I ever did from any English language book. By playing over various games from various periods you can actually see how theory and evaluations have change over time. It won't make you instantly strong but it will expose you to different positions and ideas. That's all for now. Bill Gaudry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! BB is Broadband by Yahoo! http://bb.yahoo.co.jp/