From: David J Bush <twixt <at> CSTONE <dot> NET>
Date: 13 nov 2002
Subject: Re: byoyomi,  Bronstein, "Fischer"

|      Byoyomi in amateur shogi normally means playing with X minutes of
| normal time, then Y seconds per move once time runs out.  But in Pro shogi
| it works differently.  Thruout the game, seconds are just not counted, only
| minutes, so it's like playing with only byoyomi from the start, but with a
| huge number of violations (300 for a 5 hour game !) allowed.  Presumably the
| shogi byoyomi mode described in your manual is the Pro method.

Yes, I think you're right, thanks.

|      The actual method used in Pro shogi is not appropriate for use with
| digital clocks.  It is perhaps left over from a time when clocks were
| inaccurate, or was done to minimize recording work for the game recorder.

Perhaps the Chronos "shogi" modes were simply a result of a misunderstanding
of how byoyomi is used on the amateur shogi level. Or maybe it just part
of their philososphy to "throw in everything, including the kitchen sink."

| Time delay (a.k.a. Bronstein) is in the same spirit, but is much more
| logical.  The Pro method works out to something like an average time delay
| of 30" (half the 1 minute nominal figure) because in actual play, the player
| would move at some random number of seconds past a multiple of one minute,
| and so would save anywhere from 1" to 59" depending on when he moved.  It is
| obviously more logical and fair to use a uniform delay rather than one that
| is essentially random.  But once all the time except the last minute has
| been used up, the two systems are the same as normal byoyomi.

Yes, I was wondering if pros ever decide to continue thinking or move
based on what part of that minute remains to them in the middle of a game.
Do the timekeepers give any indication of how many seconds are left in each
minute, e.g. by calling out the last few seconds of every minute? That would
seem much more distracting than helpful. Or maybe some visual cue is given?

| > I also have a question about Bronstein timing. Suppose you have used up
| > all but ten seconds of your main time. With an initial delay of 1 minute,
| > when your turn comes the clock will show one minute counting down,
| > correct? Then if you run the clock down to zero, the time will shift
| > back to your final ten seconds? I think my Chronos has a mode that can
| > do that, but it seems potentially confusing from a user's point of view.
| >
| > An increment time control, on the other hand, will show all the time
| > you have remaining under all circumstances, which seems much simpler
| > to deal with.
| >
|      This applies equally to increment and to delay.  Both are superior to
| either amateur or pro byoyomi.

Well, the point I was trying to make is that increment mode seems superior
to delay, from the user's point of view, because when it is your move,
you always see how much time you have left for that move, in a single
display. But with delay, the clock first counts down the delay time, and
then shifts over to main time. There is usually not enough room on a
clock display to show both of these times for you at once. So this could
be confusing, especially as your main time gets low. I see my clock shows
just ten seconds left. Is that delay time or main time? Oh wait, delay
time is indicated by some dashes on the left of the display. But they're
not there! Yikes!

| > With pure increment, the amount of time allotted would depend on
| > the number of moves in the game, right? Perhaps a tournament director
| > could make a "reasonable estimate" on the maximum number of moves the
| > players are likely to make in each game, and schedule the rounds
| > accordingly? Has this been tried?
|
|      Of course this is done in games now, which use byoyomi, and it would
| also be done with increment or delay events.  But the degree of
| unpredictibility is much greater when more of the game is played with
| increment or delay.  In a pure increment event, in order to accommodate the
| occasional entering kings game, the time limit would have to be too fast.

Well, either that, or the schedule might have to leave most players waiting
for the next round to begin. I was just wondering if anyone has tried a shogi
tournament with pure increment, and if so, was this problem severe enough
that they wouldn't want to try that again?

| With any of these modes, a game
| > could theoretically last an indefinite period, although I certainly
| > agree that a pure increment time would result in the greatest variation
| > on a practical level.
| >
|       One solution would be to allow for a shortened byoyomi for entering
| king games.

You mean, a solution for a pure increment time control?
Once both kings have entered, the players would adjust the increment
setting on the clock? I suppose that could work. Has anyone tried that?
Sorry for such impudent questions, but no offense is intended, and it
seems this issue may be of interest to the shogi community.

David