From: Nosovsky G23 RELCOM RU> Date: 12 nov 2002 Subject: Re: A cultural difference? Hello I have suggested to have Rules Commission in FESA which was cuted by Pieter and Martin from Draft of Baylos FESA. It is really culture difference between Chess FIDE understanding of Rules and Shogi traditional Japanese understanding. When we had World Championship in Renju in Beijing we had a lot such situations which we have to solve. Probably it is better to make such Situation Collection and recomend refere to use it as FIDE did. For instanse If someone push the clock but don't make move. Does it means that he refuse to make move in position or For missing move he have to push the clocks and say " I miss the move". Japanese probably chose 1-st variant but Europeans I guess the second. I belive there are some tipical situations which don't discuss in each local clubs, but when the players play in International competition culture deferences able to became important. Regards Alexander ----- Original Message ----- From: "SECELLE JOHANNES F L A" MINFIN FED BE> To: TECHUNIX TECHNION AC IL> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:05 AM Subject: Re: A cultural difference? > Wether it be shogi or chess, > If Ii were the referee, the game would have been a draw. > > Hans > > DANERUD MARTIN schreef: > > > Dear all, > > > > Let me bring up something that happened at the lower levels of > > Japanese amateur shogi... > > Today, I had a strange experience in a tournament at the Nihon Shogi > > Renmei. It was played with normal analog chess clocks and with 20 > > minutes per player. I played against a 3-dan player, and I had the > > better position. However, in the end of the game it was obvious to > > both players that a victory on the board would be less probable, > > because of the very short time left on both clocks. So, both players > > started to move extremely quickly in order to win on time. Suddenly, > > after I had made my move and pressed the clock, my opponent > > claimed "time", but when I looked at the clock (a second later) both > > flags had fallen. However, my opponent claimed that he had seen that > > my time was out, while his time was not. Unfortunately, no evidence of > > his late claim existed. We called for the tournament director to rule > > things out. > > At first, they (a small group gathered) seemed to propose a replay > > with 5 minutes each (or maybe a continuation). Then, however, they > > called for another referee to make the ruling. He heard us both and > > declared that I had lost the game. I claimed that there was no > > evidence, I had not seen whose flag fell first, and that a replay > > would be fair. However, after a while I let them have it, declaring > > that it was their tournament, and congratulated my opponent. > > Would this have been a chess tournament (which it was not, I know, > > etc, etc), the ruling would have been clear according to FIDE rules B7 > > and B8 -> a draw. > > Now, I wonder, > > 1) Was the ruling correct, according to general shogi practice (even > > though games without byo-yomi are not so common, I know, etc, etc)? > > 2) If it was correct, and I suppose that it was, is the reason that > > one can always trust what one of the players state that he has > > observed, since it is not allowed to tell a lie? With other words, you > > can expect a player to put the pieces on the komadai upside-down, > > putting the pieces on the board so that they a positioned in more than > > one square, talk during the games, and make repeated strange sounds > > with the fan for instance, but you could never expect him to tell a > > lie or make a wrong observation because of wishful thinking? > > Please understand me correctly now, I do not think that my opponent > > told a lie. I am just interested in the ruling and the possible > > cultural differences behind the philosophy of the ruling. > > I only want answers to this if you have something to say about > > questions 1 and 2. I do not want any rubbish like "This is not chess." > > or "Please accept that you lost." etc. I lost. My opponent won. I > > congratulated him. OK. The questions I have are 1 and 2. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Martin Danerud > > > > Reporting from the lower levels of Japanese amateur shogi >