From: SECELLE JOHANNES F L A <johannes.secelle <at> MINFIN <dot> FED <dot> BE>
Date: 12 nov 2002
Subject: Re: A cultural difference?

Wether it be shogi or chess,
If Ii were the referee, the game would have been a draw.

Hans

DANERUD MARTIN schreef:

> Dear all,
>
> Let me bring up something that happened at the lower levels of
> Japanese amateur shogi...
> Today, I had a strange experience in a tournament at the Nihon Shogi
> Renmei. It was played with normal analog chess clocks and with 20
> minutes per player. I played against a 3-dan player, and I had the
> better position. However, in the end of the game it was obvious to
> both players that a victory on the board would be less probable,
> because of the very short time left on both clocks. So, both players
> started to move extremely quickly in order to win on time. Suddenly,
> after I had made my move and pressed the clock, my opponent
> claimed "time", but when I looked at the clock (a second later) both
> flags had fallen. However, my opponent claimed that he had seen that
> my time was out, while his time was not. Unfortunately, no evidence of
> his late claim existed. We called for the tournament director to rule
> things out.
> At first, they (a small group gathered) seemed to propose a replay
> with 5 minutes each (or maybe a continuation). Then, however, they
> called for another referee to make the ruling. He heard us both and
> declared that I had lost the game. I claimed that there was no
> evidence, I had not seen whose flag fell first, and that a replay
> would be fair. However, after a while I let them have it, declaring
> that it was their tournament, and congratulated my opponent.
> Would this have been a chess tournament (which it was not, I know,
> etc, etc), the ruling would have been clear according to FIDE rules B7
> and B8 -> a draw.
> Now, I wonder,
> 1) Was the ruling correct, according to general shogi practice (even
> though games without byo-yomi are not so common, I know, etc, etc)?
> 2) If it was correct, and I suppose that it was, is the reason that
> one can always trust what one of the players state that he has
> observed, since it is not allowed to tell a lie? With other words, you
> can expect a player to put the pieces on the komadai upside-down,
> putting the pieces on the board so that they a positioned in more than
> one square, talk during the games, and make repeated strange sounds
> with the fan for instance, but you could never expect him to tell a
> lie or make a wrong observation because of wishful thinking?
> Please understand me correctly now, I do not think that my opponent
> told a lie. I am just interested in the ruling and the possible
> cultural differences behind the philosophy of the ruling.
> I only want answers to this if you have something to say about
> questions 1 and 2. I do not want any rubbish like "This is not chess."
> or "Please accept that you lost." etc. I lost. My opponent won. I
> congratulated him. OK. The questions I have are 1 and 2.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Martin Danerud
>
> Reporting from the lower levels of Japanese amateur shogi