From: bogin YAHOO CO JP> Date: 10 nov 2002 Subject: Re: A cultural difference? Dear Mr. Danerud, I don't know what the exact rule is. It probably depends on the director. Most time forfeits are clear cut so the winner is never in question. It seems that the logical thing to have done would have been to replay it like you would with a sennichite game. I once played in a tournament where my flag fell first. It was a hisshi position and my opponent had no defense. My opponent didn't claim a win before I made my next mating move so the TD said that the result would stand as is. If my opponent would have claimed a win before I mated him then he would have won. I was a little lucky I guess but that was the rule they used. I think that it was extremely nice of you to respond the way you did. Even though it was a tournament, I believe you acted very graciously. As for the your opponent not lieing , well, you'll never know, right? Simply, assuming that your opponent will always follow the rules just because they're Japanese is kind of wishful thinking. Your case is probably pretty rare so perhaps the TD really didn't know what to do. But, it also might be the case that your opponent was simply a jerk and used your non-Japaneseness against you. I not sure how well you understand Japanese so perhaps you couldn't understand the entire conversation. The TD may have just given your opponent the benefit of the doubt simply because it was less trouble. You may visit that club once but your opponent may go there regularly. Even if the TD is not friendly with your opponent, he's more than likely to see him again. Rather, than creating some bad feelings and "embarrassing" your opponent, the TD might have figured that you're only a foreigner so it's no big deal. It sounds unfair, but that kind of attitude is not so uncommon here. Playing on the Yahoo! Japan site has allowed me to see all kinds of strange things. There are some players who will use there computer skills to "steal" the result. You'll join a table where the time control had been initially set to 5min 10secs or something else but suddenly after you push start game button the time control has been magically changed to 1 min 0 secs. Eventually, the player becomes known and noone plays them but they still get their wins and points anyway. Some players have bombarded me with messages and irrelevant chat during our game in order to try and distract me or cause me to waste time closing and reclosing message windows. And, not all of the chat is polite and friendly. Some of it is quite obscene and insulting. There are a lot of players on Yahoo!Japan Shogi that play 1min 0sec shogi. Some of them can make about 20 moves without even using 10 seconds in time. I've always wondered if there's been some kind of "trick" that they been using. Recently, I believe that on Shogi 24, some players had even figured out a way to stop their clocks and keep it in extended delay mode. This allowed them to essentially increase their thinking time. I wonder if the same "trick" is also being used on Yahoo!Japan Shogi. Some people might say that the anonymity of the Internet gives some people the impression that they can get away with anything. But, I've also had some strange things happen to me a shogi clubs as well. It doesn't happen very often, but I've played in clubs where my Japanese opponent has tried to invent rules during our game. There's really no " touch move" in shogi but redos, "matta", are against the rules. At one of the few tournaments I've played in, an opponent made a move, realized it was bad, and then tried to change it. When I told him he couldn't do that he got all mad and acted like I didn't know what I was talking about. Other times, opponents have dropped 2 pawns on the same file or let there kings be taken, etc,etc,..., and then pretended it didn't happen. Those kind of illegal moves are an automatic loss. Of course, in casual games for fun you can let a lot of things slide. But, when the result really matters things are different. I, myself, left my king in check and made another move in a small tournament once. Even though I was going to win the game, the TD rightfully declared my opponent the winner. Those are just the rules and there's no way out of it. At the shogi clubs I've been to, 99.9% or the players are really nice and friendly. But, there are some people that are really not so nice. You're a foreigner, and especially if you're not-Asian looking you'll stand out immediately. Some people have said that they don't want to play me because they can't speak English, or don't want to play me because I'm a "scary-looking" foreigner. Some players start a game. start to lose, and then just quit in the middle of the game because they can't win and it's not interesting. They don't just resign and say thank you either, but try to make it seem that somehow I was cheating them. One of my favorites things, is that I'll play one player and suddenly all his friends will start giving him advice about his moves. It becomes an international match of Japan against the foreigner. This kind of kibitzing is forbidden at most clubs and can cause you to be kicked out. But, they figured I couldn't understand Japanese so who'll ever know. Usually, their advice is not good, but that's not the point. It gets really annoying when your trying to concentrate on a move to have people start analyzing rather loudly the game you're still playing. They wouldn't do it if I was Japanese. I have had opponents tell me that I should move faster because they wanted to leave, wanted to do something else, or just because they felt I was taking too long on my moves even though the game was being played without a clock. But, probably, the strangest thing, was when one guy just started singing my name over and over and over again. I wasn't even playing him. He was playing someone else at the same table. But, for some reason, after he heard the staff announce my name over the PA, he made a little song out of my name and just keeping singing, not saying, but literally singing it over and over until I told him to shut up. Some times, if things get really bad I have to get the manager. So, at shogi clubs strange things can happen. It's really a shame because like I said 99.9% of the people are really nice. So, hopefully, this time you were just a little unlucky and nothing more. But, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some other reason behind the TD's decision. Bill Gaudry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! BB is Broadband by Yahoo! http://bb.yahoo.co.jp/