From: "George I. Fernandez" MINDSPRING COM> Date: 9 nov 2002 Subject: Re: Congratulations At 09:42 AM 10/29/02 +0900, you wrote: Greetings! Congratulations to Gert!! Sorry to join these discussions so late. Recently, I've only had time to read the various postings. It seems that if I wait long enough, someone else will say pretty much what I want to say anyway... eventually! It's clear that there are inequities regarding the way in which Dan certificates are awarded by Nihon Shogi Renmei. However, this does not apply exclusively to foreign (non-Japanese) players. Below are a few examples: In the NY Shogi Club we have the following players who have received official Dan ranks from NSR: Mr. S. Ishida 4Dan and later, in Japan, 5Dan! His current Pan-Atlantic Elo rating is 1771, which corresponds to a Shodan rank. Mr. M. Hayashi and Mr. Ogihara also received 4Dan certificates in recognition of their promotional efforts in the U.S. Their current Elo ratings are 1907 and 1982 respectively. In the DC Shogi Club, Mr. Wachi, a 1Kyu player after 10 plus years of activity in that area, went to Japan a while back for a short trip and came back with a 2Dan certificate. Honorary certificates (usually beginning at [amateur] 4Dan and going to 7Dan) are in every way equal to those achieved by over-the-board play and, in Japan, I'm certain that hundreds of these, if not thousands, have been issued over the years. My friend Mr. Ozawa, a solid 4Dan and one of my early shogi teachers in the Boston area about 15 years ago, received a 5Dan certificate from his Nagoya club by virtue of only two or three wins in a special closed tournament involving just a few players. As I recall, he said that only one of his wins was a mild upset and that he was not in particularly good shogi shape at the time. It's also possible to receive official certificates via mail upon satisfactory completion of tests which are published in Shogi Sekai or other supplements. Many individuals in Japan are excellent at solving Tsume shogi problems or next move problems, routinely outperforming 4Dan or 5Dan players, but overall play at the 1Kyu to 2Dan level. It's true that getting a 4Dan or 5Dan rank by scoring 18-2, or such, is perhaps the hardest way. I also agree that players with lower ranks (in Japanese clubs) are often NOT weaker. Two of my Japanese friends from Tokyo, who are strong 3Dans, always give their starting rank as Shodan(!) and proceed to win a bunch of games in-a-row. It's hard to determine the reason why so many Japanese players routinely give such false information. It could be that without an actual certificate they feel awkward claiming any level greater than Shodan. Most Japanese shogi clubs give small prizes to players who win 5-in-a-row and increasingly bigger prizes as the number of consecutive wins rises, the streak can carry over for a fixed period of time. Perhaps getting a small prize in exchange for their playing fee is a motivation for some players. Ranks are things that we shouldn't get too hung up about. Being off by one rank is rather commonplace in Japan. Perhaps because there are so few non-Japanese 5Dans and 4Dans, some may become critical about who gets them and how. In the future, I'm certain that many of the current 3Dans and 4Dans will achieve 4Dan and 5Dan status and beyond, as far as NSR is concerned, while their corresponding Pan-Atlantic rating may remain in the 3Dan to 4Dan range respectively. This fact shouldn't diminish the accomplishment, particularly when the rank is achieved for over-the-board play. Currently, in my opinion, the Pan-Atlantic rating system is extremely accurate and even somewhat conservative in the way it awards official ranks and maintains ratings. In fact, to my knowledge, there's not a single player in the U.S. that has ever received a higher rank than deserved by the USSF or any other U.S.-based organization. I have several things to say regarding Bill Gaudry's comments on the poor results of foreign invitees to the Amateur Ryu-O tournament in Japan. First, I believe that it was the 1994 Chinese invitee and not Reijer that won the one game in the preliminary stage of that tournament. Reijer may have won at some other event that I don't know about. The Amateur Ryu-O tournament is a very strong amateur event. Winning players from all of the Japanese prefectures are represented. A few of the larger prefectures, like Tokyo and Osaka, get to send more than one player. I'm certain that among the fifty or so prefectures many have compiled poor results at the Ryu-O sen over the years. In 1996, I was the invitee to the Amateur Ryu-O sen and had a close-up view of the event from every angle. Most of the participants are among the very top of the amateur ranks. Some were ex-Shorekai [aspiring professionals] members, where they had received numerous years of practice and daily teaching from many professional players and specifically from their sponsoring sensei. Others, were the top boards (past and present) from the best University shogi clubs in Japan. In my opinion, only 5 to 15 players per year are not among the groups listed above and are "only" winners of their prefectural tournaments. In some prefectures, the qualifying tournaments are not much stronger, if at all, than our international tournaments or the U.S. Championship (which once included 5- 5Dans and 14- 4Dans!). In the opinion of many, including some professional players, who can better ascertain our comparable strengths, many of _these_ representatives are of a comparable level to that of the foreign/"gaijin" representative, during most years, and thereby quite beatable. The problem is that the odds are always against drawing one or more of these select few "weaker" opponents. For the record, my opponents in 1996 were Mr. Shinoda, 6Dan, a former #2 board at Tokyo University's championship winning team, 1994 Sen Batsu (Champion's Tournament) Winner and 46th Amateur Meijin 3rd place finisher. After losing to him in a game where I had some chances into the middle-game, I played the other loser in my four-player bracket, Mr. Tanihata, 5Dan, who beat me easily when I missed a key move in the late-opening stage of the game. He was a qualifier in all of the previous Amateur Ryu-O sens, 8 in all at the time, and the 46th Amateur Meijin Runner-up. Mr. Akio Ishikawa, Pro 5Dan, told me that in his opinion each of these amateurs would have a 30% chance of winning an even game against an average pro! So, there's quite a difference between your average "strong Japanese national" and the type of semi-pro player that I've described above. Below, Mr. Gaudry alludes to the "common" view of many Japanese that Westerners are weaker. Only when you compare the weaker or average Western 4Dans and 5Dans to the strongest Japanese 4Dans, 5Dans and 6Dans is this view correct. It's going to take time for Westerners and non-Japanese to overcome the prejudice and ignorance of some Japanese and others that feel strongly that we are at a much lower level than we really are. I for one, am very pleased and appreciative of Shogi Renmei for giving us a chance to compete and to showcase our talents every now and then. They have been very fair in spreading the invitations around and that goes for Mr. Bjerke as well. The current Pan-Atlantic Ratings list, http://www.shogi.net/fesa/ratinglists/latest.txt contains the ratings of about 800 players, including of a couple of hundred Japanese players who have played abroad. Nearly all of these Japanese players have lost games to the top Westerners. My personal tally against the best Japanese that have visited include: 4 or 5 wins at Bishop Handicap against Pros; More than 10 wins against 5 different 5Dans; And over 70 wins against 20+ different 4Dans and counting. Larry's results are even better and I imagine that the 4Dans in Europe have amassed similar results over the years. While in Japan, during three of my four previous visits, I've played and performed as a middle 4Dan at numerous locations. I'm fairly certain that most of these individuals, that have been beaten by Westerners, are now a little more open-minded about our potential and instrumental in conveying their experiences with Westerners to others. However, I still fully expect to encounter the comment "...but, you're not _really_ a 4Dan, right?" when I meet many a Japanese stranger. I'll be in Tokyo from November 22 to December 2. I'll have a few days during which I plan to play shogi and get together with new and old friends. Please contact me directly if some of you will be in the Tokyo area at that time and would like to see me or meet me. Best regards, George >> It's not quite as hard to earn 5 Dan in a Japanese club (such as Osaka Shogi Federation branch, where I've played often in the past) as you might think. It's true that you must score 18-2 as a 4 dan, but when you play lower-ranked players, the handicap is too small. Against a 3 Dan you only concede playing first, and against a 2 Dan only a lance, a very small handicap among amateurs. So if you are really of 5 Dan strength, meaning that you score about 3 out of 4 against 4 Dans, you will probably earn the rank relatively quickly if you play at the club several times a week. [...] >> Gert is a very strong shogi player, perhaps the strongest in Europe (though that >>remains to be proven), and I hope and expect that he too will feel motivated to >>prove himself worthy of the high honor the Japanese Shogi Federation has bestowed on >>him. Now that we have an effective rating/ranking system in the West, he no longer >>needs to go to Japan to do this, but can do so by dominating the European shogi >>scene in the next couple years. If he can consistently score about 3 out of 4 >>against the 4 Dan players in Europe, he will have justified his rank. [...] >> >Mr. Kaufman, > >Again, sorry. No offense was intended. I'm sure that there is little >statistical difference between the Western and Japanese Shogi and there >relative ranks. The level of play is probably pretty much the same >throughout the world. 99% of my shogi experience has been at Japanese clubs >and I haven't really had the chance to play many western players. So, I >guess my perception is a little bit jaded. But, I'm probably not the only >one that has made that mistake. You even wrote yourself that perhaps the >reason that there were no strong Japanese Nationals playing in this past >Shogi Forum was probably because the JSF wanted a foreigner to win. >Unfortunately, I think you're probably pretty close to the truth. Up to >now, as far as I know, of all the foreigners invited to participate in the >Japanese Amateur Ryu-O or other major Amateur tournaments only 1, Reijer >Grimbergen, has managed to win a game. So, despite all of the evidence to >the contrary this way of thinking is still pretty common. Perhaps Mr. >Schnider's victory and the quality of his play will go a long way in >changing that. > >I think anyone can achieve such a high dan is really strong. Like you said, >even among shogi club there is a general difference in playing strength and >the Tokyo and Osaka branches of the JSF are not the strongest in Japan by >far. or course there are much stronger ones. Some clubs even have a >different handicap set up than the one used in Osaka. For example, the >Awaji club in Kobe completely skips the Lance handicap and uses starts with >the Bishop. In any case for me, going 45-6 is pretty hard. If by " weaker" >opposition you mean lower ranked than of course you you'll play some >"weaker" guys. But, I don't necessarily think that "lower" means "weaker". >At Osaka and other clubs, high dan players almost never get paired down too >much. Unless, it's a slow day and there are no players, move or lance is >probably the biggest handicap you'll see among the high dans. They just >don't do it that way. They don't pair 5 dans with 1 or 2 dans unless and >they don't even like pairing them with 3 dans. I have asked about the >people running this and that's the impression I got. And, though it's a >little harder to do, they also try to pair players with similar records so >you don't get too many cases of 0-5 playing against 5-0. It gets especially >more difficult as you get into the promotion red zone. Quite a few times >when I've been only one win away I have drawn a higher ranked player with >the same record. So, the games don't become easier. > >Winning a handicap tournament, like you did is really quite an >accomplishment. Those tournaments are single elimination and the time limit >is 30 minutes and no byo yomi. So, you must really be truly strong in order >to be able to win it. So, I wasn't implying that you didn't deserve you're >rank. You are extremely strong and your results more than back up your >rank. I wasn't trying to imply that you, Mr. Schnider or anyone has to >justify their rank. I'd be more than happy to achieve a 6dan rank at the >club level. > $B!! (BI guess I was just trying to point out the differences in the two >promotion systems. I wasn't trying to be critical. I apologize if it came >off that way. > >By the way, in order to make 6dan, even at the relatively weak JSF Osaka >Shogi Club, you'd only need to go 18-0 or 26-2. Despite all of the strong >players who regularly play there, since 12/2001 there have only been 4 >people who have been promoted to 6dan from 5dan. They all had 26-2 records. >During the same period, only 8 people have been promoted to 5dan. Of the 5 >dan group only 3 were able to go 13-0. So, I don't think it would be >embarrassing to achieve such a high dan ranking at the club level. It's not >like there giving them out like candy. > >Once again sorry for any misunderstanding. > >Bill Gaudry George I. Fernandez (4 Dan) President United States Shogi Federation 28-30 34th Street, Apt.#6-O Long Island City, NY 11103 USA Home Telephone: (718)956-5382 E-Mail: g.fernandez mindspring com