From: Larry Kaufman COMCAST NET> Date: 9 nov 2002 Subject: Re: ISF, 5-dans, Gert Schinder and Artem Kolomiyets ----- Original Message ----- From: "bogin" YAHOO CO JP> To: TECHUNIX TECHNION AC IL> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 10:10 PM Subject: Re: ISF, 5-dans, Gert Schinder and Artem Kolomiyets > That is another good point. I am an American so I guess that's a > possibility to explore someday. Unfortunately, at this time, I am living > and working here in Japan. My job and my family are here so at least for > the time being this is where I have to be. Perhaps someday I'll have the > opportunity to return to the U.S. to try my luck, but for now I'll have to > enjoy Shogi as it is here. I wasn't trying to attack the qualifying system > for this tournament at all, I was just curious as to why the Japanese Shogi > Renmei didn't open it up the tournament to foreign residents here in Japan. Back in the '80s NSR did hold international tournaments that were open only to foreign players, regardless of whether they lived in Japan or abroad. But since they didn't want to spend big money back then on this, they didn't offer much for travel, and if I recall correctly when I played I was the only player not living in (or perhaps near) Japan. My rivals then were G. Townhill and Eddie "the Turk" (sorry, I forgot his last name). I believe I finished second. Does anyone know what became of either of these strong players? They would perhaps be somewhere around 70 years old now or so. Anyway now the event is organized based on nationality, and players like yourself living in Japan are eligible (I believe) if they return to their home country for the qualifying event. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this. > There are, believe it or not, quite a few strong foreigners here that might > have done well at the recent ISF. > I only know of Reijer Grimberger. Can you tell us the names of any other such players who are 4 Dan (either in rank or in actual strength)? > > > > It is true that the ISF 5-dan title to some extent is an honorary > > title, but > > I am convinced that NSR would not have decided to award it if they > > did not > > expect the strongest players at the ISF to be of roughly that > > strength. > > Excuse me for being rude, but I think this is kind of naive. I'm sure > that the NSR (Nihon Shogi Renmei) really thought the some of the players > would be quite strong, but I don't know whether or not they thought that > all of them would be of 5dan strength. Of course they only expected 3-4 players of 5 Dan strength. But Pieter only said "the strongest players". What would have happened if someone > not of Mr. Schnider's ability would have won. Despite his excellent result > at this tournament, if Mr. Kolomiyets would have won the tournament then > should he have been given the 5dan title? Or perhaps, what if one of the > players at the bottom of the tournament cross table had won? Should they > have gotten it as well? Anything can happen, in an Open tournament and > everone has a chance. I once won an 5-round swiss pairing chess tournament > in which I beat 1 2400+ Senior Master, and two 2000+ experts. I only had a > rating of about 1900 or so at that time. The US Chess Federation didn't > award me a Masters rating just on that one result. I gained some points but > not enough to move up even a class. > Winning an open tournament in which the top players are of a certain class does not prove that you are of that class, but it does prove beyond much doubt that you are at least of the next lower class. The winner of this event certainly "deserves" a 4 Dan rank without question. However NSR knew that the winner would "almost" certainly already be a 4 Dan at least, and so offering this rank as a prize would hardly make sense. So while of course the winner has not proven himself to be of 5 Dan level (though Gert may in fact so prove in the near future), the rank had to be offered for the prestige of the event and to promote Shogi worldwide. > Recently, I asked on this bulletin board if anyone knowe why none of the > strong Japanese Amateur Championshiops participated in the 2002 ISF. Last > time, there were Mens, womens, and elementary school champions that > participated. The mens and elementary school champion were at least 5dan or > stronger in rank. The mens champion was the winner and I believe the boys > champion was a semi-finalist. I apologize if I'm misquoting, but someone > replied that " this time the NSR wanted to probably have a foreign winner". > It was only the excellent play of Mr. Kaufman that prevented an > all-Japanese final at the last ISF. I think that the NSR would have been > more than a little embarassed if an all Japanese final had taken place so > this time they purposely keep the strong Japanese players out. Whether it's > right or wrong, I don't feel that the NSM thinks that the a non-Japanese > would had a much of a chanceto win this tournament if they would have let > 5dan Japanese champions play. They didn't even let the elementary school > champion play. Well, the real Japanese champions are 6 Dan, not 5, and in fact no Westerner has more than about a 10% chance against any of Japan's top dozen amateurs. So they chose to pick a team from one area, Tendo, rather than from all of Japan, so that the Japanese player would probably be of the same level with the top foreigners. So you are correct. > Also, ever year, the NSR invites at least one foreigner to compete in the > Amatuer Ryo-O. This is a very strong tournament and only the strongest > Japanese players are able to advance to the finals. As far as I know, only > 1 western player, Mr. Grimbergen, has ever won a game. Now, agian I > apologize if I'm wrong, bit I believe that this past year the NSR invited a > 1 kyu Westerner to play. No offense to that player, but even though this > player may have earned his chance to qualify by beating some strong > players, I'm pretty sure that the NSR felt that there was no way he could > win a game. Well, that was pretty strange; the player in question, Mr. Bjerke of Norway, qualified by a bizarre set of circumstances which basically amounted to winning one internet game from a 4 Dan, if I recall what he told me correctly. His real strength is much above 1 kyu, as he showed in the ISF, but of course you are right that his invitation was basically promotional. In fact the strength of the Western representatives in the Ryu-O has generally declined, because NSR prefers not to invite back the same players, and so they must keep lowering their standards! But if it's just to promote Shogi, I can understand this. > > Bill Gaudry > Larry Kaufman