From: bogin YAHOO CO JP> Date: 9 nov 2002 Subject: Re: ISF, 5-dans, Gert Schinder and Artem Kolomiyets Dear Mr. Stouten, > >I guess I was just surprised that the Renmei decided to award > >a 5dan rank to the winner. It quite fortunate for anyone to > >achieve such a rank from just one tournament of 5 games. > > > Well, that's a bit like saying it is quite fortunate for someone to > become > Meijin from just one event of 7 games (and only having to score 4/7). > Thank you for your reply. Also, I appreciate you pointing out the similarities between the Japanese Pro Mejin tilte and the recent Shogi International Forum. If you simplify it down to just the number of wins required to win ( 4 ) then the two titles are essentially the same. I completely missed that before but now I can see your point. However, I think that there are some basic differences. The A kyu class of the Pro's has aruguably some of the strongest players in the Professional Shogi World. Of course, not all currently hottest players aren't there, but all the A kyu players are 8dan and above. They include at least 5 former Meijins and at least 4 former or current Ryu-Os. All in all, the current 10 members of The A class and Meijin Moriuchi have won almost 200 professional titles (if you count the same title won at different times by the same player) throughout their careers. And, many of them are still quite young so of course that number will only increase. Also, in order to get to A kyu you have to win B1 kyu, and in order to get to B1 kyu you have to win at B2 kyu, and so on and so on and so on. Of course, it's all relative, right? Pro's are pro's simply because they are so good or were at least good enough to make pro. I'm not sure you can say that about the level of play at the recent International Forum or even about the qualifying tournaments required to get there. There were some very strong players there of course but not everyone there was of the 4 or 5 dan level. Some countries have stronger players than others so naturally the qualifying campaigns and the level of play are not the same. Another thing is that the Meijin is match between two players. It may be possible to beat a player once or even twice but I would imagine that to win four games in a match against the same player is quite difficult. Perhaps the result would have been the same if they ISF would have been Match play but then again it could have very well been different. In an open tournament even one loss can knock you out of contention but it a match things are quite different. > >I know I would be happy to get it that way. > > > Nothing stops you. All you have to do is to live in the USA (assuming > you > are American), beat Larry Kaufman and some other players roughly of > Larry's > strength or a bit weaker in the ISF qualifier and then score 4/5 (if > you are > lucky that's enough) against comparably strong players in the ISF > itself. That is another good point. I am an American so I guess that's a possibility to explore someday. Unfortunately, at this time, I am living and working here in Japan. My job and my family are here so at least for the time being this is where I have to be. Perhaps someday I'll have the opportunity to return to the U.S. to try my luck, but for now I'll have to enjoy Shogi as it is here. I wasn't trying to attack the qualifying system for this tournament at all, I was just curious as to why the Japanese Shogi Renmei didn't open it up the tournament to foreign residents here in Japan. There are, believe it or not, quite a few strong foreigners here that might have done well at the recent ISF. > > It is true that the ISF 5-dan title to some extent is an honorary > title, but > I am convinced that NSR would not have decided to award it if they > did not > expect the strongest players at the ISF to be of roughly that > strength. Excuse me for being rude, but I think this is kind of naive. I'm sure that the NSR (Nihon Shogi Renmei) really thought the some of the players would be quite strong, but I don't know whether or not they thought that all of them would be of 5dan strength. What would have happened if someone not of Mr. Schnider's ability would have won. Despite his excellent result at this tournament, if Mr. Kolomiyets would have won the tournament then should he have been given the 5dan title? Or perhaps, what if one of the players at the bottom of the tournament cross table had won? Should they have gotten it as well? Anything can happen, in an Open tournament and everone has a chance. I once won an 5-round swiss pairing chess tournament in which I beat 1 2400+ Senior Master, and two 2000+ experts. I only had a rating of about 1900 or so at that time. The US Chess Federation didn't award me a Masters rating just on that one result. I gained some points but not enough to move up even a class. Recently, I asked on this bulletin board if anyone knowe why none of the strong Japanese Amateur Championshiops participated in the 2002 ISF. Last time, there were Mens, womens, and elementary school champions that participated. The mens and elementary school champion were at least 5dan or stronger in rank. The mens champion was the winner and I believe the boys champion was a semi-finalist. I apologize if I'm misquoting, but someone replied that " this time the NSR wanted to probably have a foreign winner". It was only the excellent play of Mr. Kaufman that prevented an all-Japanese final at the last ISF. I think that the NSR would have been more than a little embarassed if an all Japanese final had taken place so this time they purposely keep the strong Japanese players out. Whether it's right or wrong, I don't feel that the NSM thinks that the a non-Japanese would had a much of a chanceto win this tournament if they would have let 5dan Japanese champions play. They didn't even let the elementary school champion play. Also, ever year, the NSR invites at least one foreigner to compete in the Amatuer Ryo-O. This is a very strong tournament and only the strongest Japanese players are able to advance to the finals. As far as I know, only 1 western player, Mr. Grimbergen, has ever won a game. Now, agian I apologize if I'm wrong, bit I believe that this past year the NSR invited a 1 kyu Westerner to play. No offense to that player, but even though this player may have earned his chance to qualify by beating some strong players, I'm pretty sure that the NSR felt that there was no way he could win a game. I think that the NSR's goal is to increase the popularity and image of shogi. One of the "buzz words" here in Japan is "internationaliza-tion". Every talks about it and everyone makes at least a superficial effort at doing it. But, most groups are just looking at it as a way of enhancing their image. It sounds nice. > As Larry pointed out, it is indeed unfortunate that no play-offs were > held for > first place and that Gert did not play against the numbers 2 and 3 > (Mirnik > and Kaufman), but that does not change the fact that Gert lost only > one game > and had the strongest opponents. Again, I wish to congratulate Mr. Schnider. He preformed extremely well and earned his victory. Of course, it would have been nice if he had played all of the strongest players but that's what happens in an Open tournament. Not all the top players get to battle it out. But, the conditions were the same for everyone and so no player had an unfair advantage. Some times the best player doesn't win but in this case I don't think you can say that. Hopefully, Mr. Schinider's excellent form will inspire the rest of us to continue to improve on our own level of a play. > Just as much as Gert's victory at the ISF, the performance of Artem > Kolomiyets of Ukraine there impressed me. It would be extremely good > if > Artem were to participate in the 2003 European Championship. He seems > a > force to be reckoned with and a true contender for the title. Maybe > we > should start lobbying already? > Also, congratulations to Mr. Kolomiyets on his excellent result. Quite an impressive debut. As always, these are just my own personal ramblings. Ignore them at will. Bill Gaudry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! BB is Broadband by Yahoo! http://bb.yahoo.co.jp/