From: Larry Kaufman COMCAST NET> Date: 7 nov 2002 Subject: Re: Level of Shogi in Europe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Cheymol" FREE FR> To: TECHUNIX TECHNION AC IL> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Level of Shogi in Europe Hi Gert, Le mercredi, 6 nov 2002, à 13:27 Europe/Paris, Schnider a écrit : > And if this is not enough to aquire at least good amateur status I > also won on even against a Japanese woman professional - I spoke with > other Europeans about that and for example Eric Cheymol has also won > even games against woman professionals. You are mistaken. I didn't speak about even games against women pros but about only one even game against a male pro (a 5 Dan pro). This game was played in a simul in Paris, with 7 boards at the same time. This can not be compared to an usual even game at all. He offered me to play a training even game before the first IST 3 years ago. The pro didn't see a threat in the endgame, so that I could win. I consider this game as a teaching game. Anyway, it is a great satisfaction for me :-) Regarding the level of the women pros, I think there is quite a range. Ms. Nakai is clearly a stronger player than I am, having beat me twice even. She is probably about what we would call amateur 5 1/2 Dan level. But my impression is that the average women pros are around what we would call amateur 4 1/2 Dan level, so it is not shocking for Gert to have defeated one of them, though of course it's still something to be proud of. > One more thing I experienced comparing European and Japanese players. > When playing against Japanese amateurs (from 2dan to 4dan, also some > 5dans) I got a worse position after the opening in nearly all my > games, Most of amateur 4 Dan and above Japanese players have a very good knowledge of the joseki. I saw it many many times with Japanese visiting Europe, for example, Ito, 5 Dan who lived in Europe a lot of years, Toyokazu Miyamoto, 4 Dan and twice European Champion, Tomohiko Ueda, 5 Dan, and many others. I agree here. Years ago, when I had no chance to play strong players except on trips to Japan, I played primarily handicap games, and so I didn't play the opening of even games as well as Japanese of similar level. That is probably the situation Gert is in now to some degree. Now with the internet and with many strong Japanese having lived in the U.S. I no longer have the excuse of inexperience, and in fact my even game opening now is only slightly weaker than my "equals" in Japan. But in general the opening is a weak point for us westerners. > - but when it comes to fighting and endgame calculations they are > weaker than Europeans with the same rank. Gloups again. Having played with many 2-5 Dan amateur Japanese players over years, I have not the same opinion at all. Perhaps Larry can give us his personal opinion ? Several points to make here. First of all, "the same rank" depends very much on the source of the rank, and may cover a huge range. Taking the largest club, the Shinjuku Shogi Center, as the standard, there are players who play there as 4 Dan who can't calculate well at all; to these players I can give Bishop handicap successfully. But there are also players who play as 4 Dan there who seem almost like pros; I have very little chance against the strongest of them. The problem is that the club simply doesn't award ranks beyond 4 Dan, so the rank has very little real meaning. The next point is that in the vast majority of cases, the longer the time limit, the more favorable it is for the westerner. The Japanese generally find better moves at first glance than westerners of the same rank, but with more time the westerner is more likely to play a better move than the Japanese. This may be due to the Japanese being more exposed to tv games, literature, etc., or it may be due to the fact that nearly all strong western players of shogi are of Master or near-master strength in chess, and so must have highly developed calculating skills. Finally, my impression is that usually the Japanese players are equal or superior to westerners of the same level in the endgame; they are sometimes quite skilled at Tsume. But in middle-game tactics western players are generally stronger (assuming the same rating). Again this is probably because middle game tactics are somewhat chess-like, whereas Tsume skill (involving mostly dropping pieces) is very different from chess. So in general I tend to agree with Gert's comments, but if one is speaking about the endgame then I would tend to agree with Eric. Larry Kaufman, amateur 5 Dan