From: Chiaki Ito <shogi <at> MAIL <dot> COM>
Date: 17 dec 2002
Subject: Re: "art"

Thank you for your comment.  That is an interesting comment what Mr. Maritee
made.  Well, I think it is a difficult question.  First of all, it needs a
bit more clarification what reasonable/technical moves by Mr. Maritee mean.

Pros may prefer some moves which are not always beautiful, but reasonable as
he suggested, in a sense that moves reflect their backgrounds and
personalities.  This is how I interpret reasonable.

Yonenaga's style is called as doronumaryuu.  He often makes moves which are
not considered beautiful, but reasonable for his particular character.  I
think uniqueness is one of the key issues to understand or judge the value
of one's moves.

For this, I think one needs to know the broader personal, cultural, and
social context to appreciate some, if not all, moves.  Moves should not be
detached from human agencies.  Even the same moves could have different
meanings and values if played by different players.

In the endgame, Ooyama's kin and gin used to go in "strange" directions, but
that was his style, though not very beautiful.  I could arbitrarily copy
such style and may still win a game, but it doesn't mean very much because
it is not reasonable...

This is such a complex question!

Chiaki

----- Original Message -----
From: "David J Bush" <twixt <at> CSTONE <dot> NET>
To: <SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: "art"


> | ...
> | From what I know, pros think that their primary job is to produce a good
> | kifu or moves
> | and they do not always come with a win.  Of course, they have
> | to make a living so they need to win, but they really think their
ultimate
> | "strength"
> | is reflected on and exists in the kifu and moves, not in the outcomes.
> |
> | For instance, pros often make "katachi zukuri" and resign in a position
> | which seems there is still a
> | chance for a turn-over.  They do this because they don't want to mess up
> | with
> | their kifu by making moves which do not show their "strength".  Some of
such
> | games
> | actually could have been won, if they had refused to resign, but they
> | didn't.  I think what this implies is meaningful for what we have been
> | talking about, the relationship between ratings and strength.
> |
> | In fact, players who are considered with "strength" are not always
> | winners with big titles.  Players such as Hirofumi Serizawa, Nobuyuki
> | Oouchi, Keiji
> | Mori, Satoshi Murayama, and Motoji Hanamura (and even Jyumei Koike) got
only
> | a few
> | titles, but they are remembered as players with "strength" and their
> | artistic moves which people
> | still love.
>
> This reminds me of what Ando Meritee wrote in his account of his
> Renju match against Shigeru Nakamura:
>
> "Technically we have quite same style - we are both playing in aggressive
> way, never let the opponent to have easy game, but fight till the end. We
> both work hard on new moves and try them on opponents. We both prefer
> reasonable moves rather than beautiful moves. (This is what makes Nakamura
> different from other Japanese - the other Japanese always want to play
> beautiful moves which eventually may not be very effective, whereas
Nakamura
> plays more technical and reasonable way)."
>
> Is Mr. Meritee talking about the same thing, do you think?
> What I mean is, would you say that those Shogi players you listed like
> to play "beautiful" moves? Thanks.
>
> David