From: Chiaki Ito <shogi <at> MAIL <dot> COM>
Date: 14 dec 2002
Subject: Re: Ratings and grades (was: improve your shogi)

Pieter,

Hello.  Long time since we saw each other last time!

Sure!  I totally agree with you that discussions do not have to go anywhere
and that people should say or angry or waste their time whatever they think
they should do.  But I do think we tend to be away from the essence of Shogi
when we talk about these issues such as ratings and grades.

The core of the ratings and grades is to rank players in the context of who
is better than who, based solely on the game results, win or lose.  I am
questioning this because it blinds us from the more important elements of
Shogi: process in games and individuality of players.  The outcomes of your
games may technically be reflected on your ratings and grades but they are
just a small part in the concept of "strength".  In my view, one's strength
in Shogi is much more abstract, complex, meaningful, and deeper.  It is not
just based on who you beat or how many tournaments you win, but also how you
play Shogi including what moves you make, how they reflect your life, how
unique they are, and how they mean to you or others.   Reducing to an
unified scientific objective format seems rational, but it omits a lot of
important elements in Shogi.

I loved the title of Tony's book, the Art of Shogi.  If in fact Shogi is
art, it should be something which cant be quantified in numbers, right?

Chiaki

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pieter Stouten" <stouten <at> SHOGI <dot> NET>
To: <SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 5:51 AM
Subject: Ratings and grades (was: improve your shogi)


> Hello Chiaki,
>
> On 2002/12/13 at 7:46 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >i think these discussions dont go anywhere...
> >
> As evidenced by the very lively discussion, people are interested in
> ratings and grades, some even passionate. These discussions don't
> necessarily have to go anywhere. People have discussions because they
> like to, they play Shogi because they like to. I think that is good
> enough a reason.
>
> >the ratings and titles are one
> >thing, while your shogi strength is another.  we all know that these
> >measurements are very arbitrary and superficial after all.
> >
> I think that in general Elo ratings are a very good reflection of
> strength and I think grades based on these ratings are a very good
> reflection of sustained peak performance. If you have reason to
> believe that that is not the case then please let us know, because
> quite a few people do take ratings and grades seriously.
>
> >if you have time talking about all these things, i think you can use
> >it to think about how to improve your shogi.
> >
> People can play Shogi or organize Shogi or discuss Shogi or all of
> these things or none of these things. It's up to them, I would think.
>
> Ciao,
>
> Pieter