From: Eric Cheymol FREE FR> Date: 14 dec 2002 Subject: Re: Elo ratings and grades To all shogi players, The discussion has taken another direction. Anyway I would like to reply to some Pieter's last mails now. I couldn't do it earlier. Pieter, the problem is that you write comments without knowing the stories completely. You did this 3 times, let me show you. Le jeudi, 12 déc 2002, à 10:17 Europe/Paris, Stouten, Pieter [R&D/0467] a écrit : > What is said here is that NSR gives players dan-diplomas, but that > even NSR > does not recognize this as awarding a grade. I am not sure NSR agrees > with > that notion. First time : Kiyoshi Onogi himself told this to me at the prizegiving ceremony of the 1999 ISF. NSR opinion about this point can have changed since, but this definitely was their opinion at this time ! How can you doubt about this ? You were not in Tokyo for the first ISF ! I was there and I talked with Kiyoshi Onogi personnally ! >> You are talking about an internet tournament !! This >> tournament was not recognized by any association as a >> rated tournament. Internet tournaments are not ratable >> by FESA/USSF, and results in internet tournament can >> not be considered at all, even if you manage to beat a >> pro in an even game! >> > This again is inconsistent with the premise that "FESA accepts all NSR > decisions, whatever they are." NSR decided to give Richard a 4-dan > diploma, > so FESA should have had no choice but to accept this. That the grade > would > never have been awarded within the FESA/USSF system is not relevant. Second time : I didn't hear anything about this 4 Dan promotion at his time, later neither. No one wrote to me about it, Richard didn't, his country's grade officer neither ! Perhaps, they thought with sportivity that it would not be honest to claim for it ! > What Eric, in fact, has done is to decide for himself when to accept > NSR > decisions and when not. I will comment this point later in this mail. > The event *could be* rated because it met the FESA/USSF criteria for a > ratable event. The event *was* rated because a substantial number of > players > on the Pan-Atlantic list participated. And this decision *should* have been taken before the start of the tournament ! As the dates of the ISF were known months in advance, and the complete list of the participants have been known to all in advance as well, then FESA could decide well in advance to rate it or not. This was the only thing I pointed out. I didn't contest the fact that the ISF could be rated or not. By honesty with the participants, a tournament rating status should not be changed after it starts. It can be changed before the beginning of the first round, but not after. Le jeudi, 12 déc 2002, à 13:09 Europe/Paris, Stouten, Pieter [R&D/0467] a écrit : > I don't think so. Eric applied his own judgement in that he accepted > the NSR > grade of a winner/runner-up of a major tournament, but not the grades > of > players that were eliminated earlier on (despite the fact they got > official > diplomas, e.g., Asle at the first ISF) Third time : the biggest point. I didn't want to write all details about this story, but you really need all dots on the i. After the prizegiving ceremony of the 1999 ISF, Asle made a little comment about this diploma. I didn't consider this comment as a claim of asking FESA (me as the rating officer) to recognize this shodan grade. I only considered it as a private joke. Despite the fact that reaching the 8th final of the ISF is a big achievement for a kyu player, and that in other circumstances I would be very happy to register his new grade, I must take care about the way grades are awarded. And in that case, I would have been very annoyed to register a shodan promotion : Alse played 4 games, got 2 points out of these 4 games. Up to now, all is great. But he won both games by ILLEGAL moves !! How can anyone claim for a promotion if all his wins are from illegal moves only ? Even a beginner can be shodan that way ! We are very far from Boris' sportivity saying that he prefers fulfilling the elo requirements before getting the 4 Dan grade !! I am afraid that such fantaisist claims reach to an immediat grade inflation if they are accepted. A member of the rating comitee should be honest about his own promotions. Otherwise, how can he be credible to other players ? In that case, I assume "What Eric, in fact, has done is to decide for himself when to accept NSR decisions and when not." But for all other cases, I don't agree at all with your comment. And I can absolutely not let you writing this, and trying to convince other readers without saying anything. Except this case, nobody talked to me about a promotion. So your comment """he accepted the NSR grade of a winner/runner-up of a major tournament, but not the grades of players that were eliminated earlier on""" is completely unfounded. Now, this subject is over for me. I will not answer to new mails about it. Let's talk about more constructive subjects. Best shogi wishes, Eric