From: bogin YAHOO CO JP> Date: 13 dec 2002 Subject: Re: Proposal I think that this has been a very interesting discussion. I think ratings and ranks are a inseparable part of organized shogi so I don't feel that talking about them is "disgusting" or demeaning" to the game of Shogi. And, I don't feel that any of the participants were trying to belittle any of the achievements or rank of any one player or group of players. There seems to be some confusion regarding this matter since quite so many people, so far, have contributed to this discussion. I don't see what the harm is discussing it here. Also, Mr. Kaufman, I think you're idea isn't a bad one. Whether or not you've made it half-jokingly (as was suggested) it may turn out to be something to seriously consider. The problem is picking the 4 players. Anytime someone is excluded who feels they should be allowed to participate, feeling s are going to be hurt. Perhaps 2003 is too soon and more time is needed to determine the qualifying system. I agree with Mr. Tisdale in that the Internet could be a valuable ally here. The qualifiers could take place over the net and the then the main tournament could be made live. Of course, we could just assume that most of the people here aren't cheaters and that the games would be fair but probably some system should be discussed to try and eliminate that possibility as much as possible. Finally, just one more question about your reason for excluding foreign players residing in Japan. A while back when I made the erroneous assumption that the average strength of Japanese dan players was higher than the average strength of average Westerners, many people wrote to this board to argue the opposite. Well, I stand corrected and realize that my earlier statement was inaccurate. But, you wrote that Western players who have lived in Japan for a long time should be excluded because they "might" have an unfair advantage. Since they probably have improved much more since arriving in Japan and therefore their participation may be unfair. Also, Japanese-Brazilian players should be excluded because their command of Japanese presumably gives them an unfair advantage. This is confusing to me. If you really believe that the average dan level of the between Japan and the rest of the world aren't all that different then why exclude people simply because of where they live or what languages they understand. As long as they're not a Japanese national, they meet all of the requirements ( rating, rank, whatever) to participate, have shown a willingness to pay their own way or come up with the money needed to participate then why would it be necessary to exclude them? Also, I would think that the 4 players or so chosen would be a pretty confident, as well as, a strong bunch. I don't think they would be "afraid" to play against the someone just because they understand more Japanese than they,themselves, do. Bill Gaudry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! BB is Broadband by Yahoo! http://bb.yahoo.co.jp/