From: Larry Kaufman <lkaufman <at> COMCAST <dot> NET>
Date: 12 dec 2002
Subject: Re: Proposal

----- Original Message -----
From: "DANERUD MARTIN" <martin.danerud <at> TELIA <dot> COM>
To: <SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: Proposal


> Dear shogi friends,
>
> > Why not organize a quadruple
> > round robin of these four players, at a time and place convenient to
all,
> > for the title of "Absolute European Champion"?
>
> >      If such an event is held, I would make a commitment to travel to
the
> > winner's home country, at my own expense if necessary, for the purpose
of
> > playing a long match for the Pan-Atlantic Championship or some other
> > similar name.  The winner could then defend his title every year or two
> > against a worthy challenger, just as is done in chess (at least until
> > recently).
> >      I think such events could stir up more interest in shogi in the
West,
> > and perhaps we could even get backing from Japan.
>
> Larry Kaufman has a lot of interesting things to say in this posting to
Shogi-L.
>
> This proposal regarding an "Absolute European Champion" is not fair. I
does
> not matter how many times you are thinking it
> through, it will be an almost impossible task to invite the "right"
players.
>
     Simply inviting the four highest rated (established) "European" players
(with the definition left to FESA) who are willing to attend should be fair
enough, as it should include the recent winners of important events.

> The proposal would, indeed, erode the value of the European Championship,
if
> not the one 2002 won by Boris Mirnik, then definitely the one 2003 won by
???

     If the title is the issue, then make it the European qualifier for the
Pan-Atlantic championship.
>
> The proposed format is also interesting. Larry Kaufman has been one of the
singers in
> the choir praising the rating of games with very short time limits (the
rating of
> almost any friendly game, it seems) and has drawn advanced conclusions
from earlier events
> based on just a few rounds and sometimes strange pairing (2nd ISF is a
recent
> example).

     I don't like short time limits myself, but as the majority of players
in the U.S. are Japanese nationals who mostly favor them we defer to their
wishes.  I have never believed that short events mean much; they are just a
way of getting people to play shogi over a weekend.  But the ratings
generated from many such events are accurate.

Now, however, Larry turns to a famous chess concept: the quadruple (or
> at least double) round robin with only four players (12 rounds!), thus
admitting that the result of
> one single game cannot be the evidence of whom is the strongest player. I
mean,
> that is the obvious criticism of the short tournaments with short thinking
time, historically
> found necessary in shogi because of the supposedly limited time and money
among its Western amateurs.
>
> I indeed agree with Larry, that it would be very interesting to see the
outcome of a
> tournament with a more chess like setting. What about, for instance,
playing a nine
> rounds tournament (ten players single round robin or Swiss format) with
one round
> per day and, say, three hours + 1 min byo-yomi per player?
>
     In my opinion, a time limit that does not permit at least 2 rounds a
day is just not practical except for local events.  But that could still
permit fairly long games.

> I have always maintained that such tournaments would sometimes give other
winners and other champions
> than the present tournaments. They would also produce more interesting
games, which the players
> would have time enough to write down, which in turn would also create a
quicker development
> among the Western players. The counter arguments have always been things
like "It does not
> matter. An amateur cannot produce better shogi in that way. That is what
the Japanese professionals
> say." "We would lose too many players in our fragile little pack if we
were to force them to spend
> so much money and time travelling to so long events." (Actually, a lot of
them at least
> seem to have eons of time to discuss the outcome of the events
afterwards...). Finally, I know
> that Larry has not written anything about thinking time yet, but admit
that it would be a
> little silly for four persons to come together and play 12 quick rounds
among themselves, in order to start up
> and finish as many games as possible in a short time and then call the
winner "Absolute European
> Champion".
>
     Yes, I would like to see the event played over 6 days if possible, at
fairly long time limits with just 2 rounds a day.

> Thus, Larry has some interesting thoughts, but we do not need any extra
European championship.
> However, the idea of "real" tournaments is a necessary step in order to
make shogi a better and
> more interesting sport in the West. Thus we would also see that there are
quick play experts as well as
> experts of games with longer thinking time, just like in chess. I do not
doubt that the majority of the
> tournaments will be weekend tournaments in the future as well, but this
would be a first step towards
> another future than the one we are bound for at the moment...
>
> Best regards,
>
> Martin Danerud
>
> (opinions expressed as a private person)

     The main point about my proposal is to have an event open only to those
who have some chance to win it.  It could be limited to players with 4 Dan
rank or rating over 2100, for example.  If that means just double round
robin instead of quadruple, that's still okay.  But the point is to have an
event that will "probably" make the best player champion, so that a
subsequent US vs. Europe match will be clearly between the best players of
each.  Such a match could have a high profile and good promotional value, I
think.

     Larry Kaufman