From: Matt Casters <Matt.Casters <at> ADVALVAS <dot> BE>
Date: 12 dec 2002
Subject: Re: Elo ratings and grades

Hi,

I understand the points being made.  You were probably searching for the
boundaries of the proposed rules.
Perhaps one way to take a stab at this is to start by stating the obvious:

1) Make a clear distinction between rankings and dan-grades. (obvious)
2) A grade is awarded because a player reaches a certain strength in shogi.
(obvious)
3) A ranking can get lower over time, while a grade can never be taken away.
(obvious)
3) Grades can be awarded to people with extra-ordanary merits to shogi.
(obvious)
4) What for example counts as an extra-ordanary merit to shogi? (not so
obvious)
5) Does winning a tournament in Japan count as an EOM to shogi? (obviously
it does!)
6) Specify which organisations can hand out grades:
   FESA & US with Transatlantic system (obvious)
   NSR (obvious)
   Other national shogi associations not included in above? (not allways so
obvious)

Personally I feel very strong about 3).  Perhaps it would give some people
in Europe, but in other area's of the world too, the strength to go on if
they would receive an occasional Thank You in the form of a special grade.
Why, I can already think of several candidates in Europe! (Including you
Pieter!!)

Gert, congratulations with your promotion to 5 Dan! ;-)

CU all in Paris,

Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: The Shogi Discussion List
[mailto:SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL]On Behalf Of Stouten, Pieter
[R&D/0467]
Sent: donderdag 12 december 2002 12:27
To: SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL
Subject: Re: Elo ratings and grades


--- bogin <bogin <at> YAHOO <dot> CO <dot> JP> wrote:

> Perhaps, I am the only one who may feel this way, but I think
> it's probably safe to assume that the NSR is a more than
> reliable source when it comes to awarding ranks and titles.
> Of course, they are not infallible and may sometimes award
> titles on more of an honorary basis than for concrete results.
> But, I think it's quite a reach to assume that with respect
> to the recent Shogi Forum that they were just giving the 5dan
> grade away. It seems that it's quite unfair to compare the
> NSR to just anybody holding a tournament and declaring the
> winner a 5dan or for that matter any other dan. I believe
> that their decisions could carry much more wait than that.
>
Madonna! The *ONLY* point I made was that there is no logical relationship
between the decision to rate a tournament and the decision to accept grades
awarded by the organizers of that tournament, whoever these organizers are.
Yes, I trust NSR's judgement and yes I am in favour of accepting the grade
they award to the winner of a major tournament, but that decision has
nothing to do with the decision to rate the tournament for the Pan-Atlantic
Elo list.

Normally, I am not at a loss of words, but I feel I am not getting through
at all this time. Maybe someone else (Larry?) can articulate my point
better.

Ciao,

Pieter